UK Self Regulation

[LanczSpringer]

Thought I would see what other views of this are!
We are having a similar debates on someones hijacked thread somewhere in the ether of this forum!

We need to self regulate, to protect our sport from Muppet's, no disrespect but people need to learn the country way of life, field skills that cant be bought. We need an apprenticeship and exam system as in the USA or Germany.

Learn about birds welfare and that of the quarry, learn how to hunt!

We are in dangerous times if anyone can go and buy an BOP and do with it what they please!

come then lets hear your views???

[Kornie]

uuurghh, lancz I just posted something on the varment thread, I cant be bothered. If you want you can quote it over lol.

[MickeyDredd]

my thoughts are as per the other thread, sorry if I had time I would cut and paste them here. :)

Mike

[OutFlying]

Thought I would see what other views of this are!
We are having a similar debates on someones hijacked thread somewhere in the ether of this forum!

We need to self regulate, to protect our sport from Muppet's, no disrespect but people need to learn the country way of life, field skills that cant be bought. We need an apprenticeship and exam system as in the USA or Germany.

Learn about birds welfare and that of the quarry, learn how to hunt!

We are in dangerous times if anyone can go and buy an BOP and do with it what they please!

come then lets hear your views???


NO. NO. NO.

Learn how to hunt - will you close down all the non hunting falconry centers ?

Ban the owl keepers ?

This is just another example of the big nanny state culture that is evolving. So what is someone doesn't want or can't hunt his / hers hawk properly. As long as the hawk is kept in good condition and not harmed why does it concern you ?

I said this many times already on this forum - Animal Welfare is already highly regulated. If you treat you hawk badly - you will get prosecuted.

I haven't flown a long wing at game - will I need to pass an exam to own one - or will I go and do some research and then take one up when I feel confident to do so.

Why single falconry out from the other field sports, do you need to learn the ways of the country to own a shotgun ?

Why is a falcon / hawk different to a working gundog ? To get the best out of both knowledge is required, if you choose not to get the knowledge you end up with a well cared for pile of ***** - a pet.

[Skeld]

You have to pass tests to drive a car, but there are still plenty of ******s on the roads.

[OutFlying]

Will there be "Falconry Police" to make sure everyone is doing the hunting correctly ?


Or just more red tape with nothing to enforce it ????????????????????????

[Skeld]

"Falconry Police"
Interesting thought, maybe you could be arrested for flying whilst disqualified. Or a fixed penaulty ticket for a defective primary 2, or even jay hawking! :shock:

[Hawkmaster]

MOVED TO THE APPROPRIATE SECTION

[MickeyDredd]

There is no pre-requisite that all BOP should be hunted.

If you instigate a requirement that people must have passed an exam which shows they have the knowledge required to maintain a bird in a fit and proper manner BEFORE they are permitted to buy one, surely this must help to stop the significant percentage of BOP keepers in the UK today who should not have A bird, never mind the collections they have built up.

Like I said on the other thread there is no quick fix or 100% ideal solution, but if you care to read some of the threads currently being posted on this forum it is glaringly obvious that something must be attempted to stop inexperienced people getting a bird when they know sod all about the husbandry required to maintain them to at least a decent level.

Mike

[OutFlying]

MickeyDredd,
What happens now if you don't maintain a bird in a fit and proper manner ? Answer you will be prosecuted under animal welfare laws.

Under your proposed system what would happen to you ? Answer you would be prosecuted under animal welfare laws.

Under this self regulation or government regulation - who is going to enforce other than the forces that are already in place ?

Jim.

[MickeyDredd]

MickeyDredd,
What happens now if you don't maintain a bird in a fit and proper manner ? Answer you will be prosecuted under animal welfare laws.

Under your proposed system what would happen to you ? Answer you would be prosecuted under animal welfare laws.

Under this self regulation or government regulation - who is going to enforce other than the forces that are already in place ?

Jim.

Jim

The point I'm trying to make is that prevention is better than cure, because as you say yourself the cure method simply isn't working.

Believe me I am just as much against legislation as I think you are but I am concerned at how things might pan out in the sport we both love.

Mike

[OutFlying]

Mike,
I feel with the government in office at the moment, no measures we take will prevent them banning falconry if they wanted. You only have to look at The Burns Report, the government commission it and when the report backed hunting they ignore it and banned it anyway.

I think the further you regulate something the easier it is to ban. There is nobody to enforce the current laws so how would further laws work ?

Jim.

[MickeyDredd]

Yes Jim, but the ban on fox hunting again was from a cruelty angle was it not. The regulation angle that Lancz and I appear to be alone in supporting on here has nothing to do with cruelty, other than I suppose the odd bird which will suffer cruelty rather than neglect.

I tend to find that if something aint broke then it is less likely to be "fixed" although again I would agree with you that if the anti's target falconry through a cruelty agenda then no legislation in this world will stop the government from pandering to their vegetable casserole-loving inklings.

Mike

[OutFlying]

Mike,
I'm all for knowledge and training - clubs, mentors or courses whatever. I just don't agree with it being compulsory by law. Most of the idiots in falconry soon get bored and move on to something else, making people pass a test without any enforcement will not improve standards.

Jim.

[MickeyDredd]

Mike,
I'm all for knowledge and training - clubs, mentors or courses whatever. I just don't agree with it being compulsory by law. Most of the idiots in falconry soon get bored and move on to something else, making people pass a test without any enforcement will not improve standards.
Jim.

Jim, thats my point in a nutshell and the point of the thread so it appears we agree after all :lol: :lol:

unfortunately when the idiots move on there are casualties left behind in the birds they set free or pass on to fellow idiots, so my angle is to prevent them getting the birds so easily in the first place.

mike

[OutFlying]

But is it not the same with dogs being passed on - so you can't have one rule for one and not other animals.

I can't stand the idiots but don't want to be enforced by rules due to them. It would only be downhill from the present systems and i'm sure new regulations would lead to an easier option for banning.

Jim.

[LanczSpringer]

The keeping of dogs is a prime example, the keeping of dangerous breed dogs!

If an idiot was to go out and buy a pitbull type of dog which savages a little old ladys yorkie its all pitbull dog type owners that will have them taken off them, laws imposed on them etc etc.

But if it was harder for them to aquire a pitbull from the breeders, the prospective owners were to investigate how a dog of this type should be kept, walked, handled, trained etc etc then perhaps the whole situation could have been avoided in the first place!

[Osiris]

Well said LanczS! Gr8 comparrison m8 and true! :supz:

[OutFlying]

The keeping of dogs is a prime example, the keeping of dangerous breed dogs!

If an idiot was to go out and buy a pitbull type of dog which savages a little old ladys yorkie its all pitbull dog type owners that will have them taken off them, laws imposed on them etc etc.

But if it was harder for them to aquire a pitbull from the breeders, the prospective owners were to investigate how a dog of this type should be kept, walked, handled, trained etc etc then perhaps the whole situation could have been avoided in the first place!


All dogs have potential for damage, will everyone need to pass an exam to own a dog ? Many are abandoned and neglected much more than hawks. I think this attitude to falconry license is more an elitist attitude than a necessity.

[Takajo]

Yeah, have the govt make a pit-bull license too. People can go to pit-bull school in their free time. :roll:

[LanczSpringer]

I agree that all dogs hold the potential to cause harm, and so do another long list of obscure items, animals, machines etc etc.

But it would not be a bad assumption to make that the dangerous breed dogs hold the most potential?? (Hence the name ;-) )

Alot are, as you rightly point out, abandoned and mistreated so a mix of education and SELF REGULATION would help to over come both issues!

The RSPCA when re-homing a dog perform a home visit, why is this??? SELF REGULATION to ensure that the intended home is suitable for the animal to be re-homed!

You are never going to stop all cases but I am certain that this would help reduce the number drastically!

[OutFlying]

Exactly what is your aim of self regulation aiming to prevent ? Just a straight answer other than animal welfare (already covered )

Jim.

[LanczSpringer]

To protect the sport of falconry!!

[Takajo]

God, I hope no one raises the price of raptors :oops:
In Japan there'll be no more falconers left except rich idiots.....

[OutFlying]

how and from what ?

[OutFlying]

Exactly what is your aim of self regulation aiming to prevent ? Just a straight answer other than animal welfare (already covered )

Jim.

any offers ?

[LanczSpringer]

By self regulation and education of prospective keepers / falconers!
Protecting the sport from the government implementing unworkable restrictions and not giving the antis any incriminating evidence that they can turn into damaging material to get support for the baning of falconry.

Thats a straight answer from me ;-)

[OutFlying]

What damaging material ? I can't see where your coming from if not animal welfare.

Not a straight answer, just a wooly response.

[LanczSpringer]

I am coming from all angles, as it will provide help with animal welfare, but you said aside from animal welfare!

If we go back to the dog analogy, a hawk takes a little old ladies dog, or some novice that has no idea uses baggies, or a hawk kept in ***** conditions or a hawk that doesn't get flown free the list can go on...

All this has potential to be damaging propaganda has it not?

[LanczSpringer]

I cant see what you have to loose, you are a capable falconer, surely you would be looking ot protect your sport?

How do you see a better way?

P.S. No wooly replies ;-)

[OutFlying]

I am responsible and want to protect the sport. But fail to see how a self regulated license would protect the sport. If someone is mis treating their hawk they will be prosecuted. If they are poaching they will be prosecuted.

So if the person is not mistreating their hawk and not poaching - what damage are they causing ?

I don't like how easy it is to buy a hawk but that's what happens when you live in a democracy. I don't want a nanny state where there are strict laws to partake in any activity.

You and I are both in a club with a code of conduct and chose to learn the art of falconry, if others do not wish to have this level of knowledge - its their loss but if they are not maltreating their hawks what gives you the right to say they can't own a hawk.

Jim.

[MickeyDredd]

Jim

If I can give an example as to why I think there should be a control (not a law) on inexperienced people obtaining BOP, and indeed it is this individual who makes me feel so strongly on this subject.

A guy who lives approx 10 miles from me has built up a collection of around 14 birds, owls, hawks and falcons. He lives in a house with a small garden and does not have sufficient aviaries to house them and leaves some of them out on the lawn overnight all year round, I would point out that where I live temperatures drop to below -10 in winter and it is a damp coldness, and being Scotland it p*sses down regularly!

He has killed approx 4 birds in the last 2 years, he feeds them a bare minimum food ration, 99% of the time it is DOC. He has paired up 2 harris to try to breed them (one of these classic backstreet dealers that have previously been mentioned) and goes into the aviary about 10 times per day to see if she has laid :oops: Thankfully as you would imagine she has not laid.

He goes round the local gala's with the birds, with no paperwork for the birds, no baths and allows kids to hold the birds including EEO and GHO, both potentially dangerous species - with NO INSURANCE!!!!!! He passes himself of as a font of all knowledge yet if you asked him what full fat meant he wouldnt have a clue and cant pronounce ferruginous never mind fly one :)

A WLO asked him at one gala if he had the requisite paperwork and he palmed him off with some sh*te - there was no follow-up visit which is a disgrace. He has been reported to the RSPCA - they did nothing. The current controls you mention simply do not work.

So I'm sorry but him alone makes me want some kind of self-regulation introduced (NOT LAWS) to stop the problem before it occurs.

Apologies if I appear to be ranting, I always try not to, but he gets my blood boiling :evil:
Mike

[OutFlying]

It makes my blood boil to, but as you say nobody has used the laws that are already in place. Seems like neglect to me.

With more regulations in place, it would still be the same agencies enforcing them - if they can't enforce the ones in force now what chance of enforcing further ones.

I doubt this man treats his hawks like this due to a lack of knowledge but more likely due to lack of care. He would probably pass a test on raptor knowledge, this is my main point - you can pass a test but who will make sure you maintain the standards ????

Maybe a follow up phone call would be in order, self regulation - make sure that people who own hawks treat them correctly.

Jim.

[MickeyDredd]

It makes my blood boil to, but as you say nobody has used the laws that are already in place. Seems like neglect to me.

With more regulations in place, it would still be the same agencies enforcing them - if they can't enforce the ones in force now what chance of enforcing further ones.

I doubt this man treats his hawks like this due to a lack of knowledge but more likely due to lack of care. He would probably pass a test on raptor knowledge, this is my main point - you can pass a test but who will make sure you maintain the standards ????

Maybe a follow up phone call would be in order, self regulation - make sure that people who own hawks treat them correctly.

Jim.

Jim

Sorry but I feel you are missing my point, if you can assert some kind of regulation BEFORE such people can take up a bird you would not need these agencies to act (or not as the case may be!)

I assure you it is 100% lack of knowledge in this guys case, despite owning birds for about 4 years he still has not learnt much, if anything. He would not stand a chance of passing any test on falconry husbandry or knowledge, trust me on this one.

A follow-up plan of attack is being considered as we type, we just need to work out the most effective method to make these agencies do their job, sadly an attack by one of his birds on a child would probably be most effective.

Mike

[OutFlying]

Mike
Do you think this man does not know he his neglecting these birds ? I would doubt this very much and ignorance isn't an excuse where the law is concerned.

What I an saying is anyone can pass a test but what will make them continue to follow the correct actions ?

Jim

[MickeyDredd]

Mike
Do you think this man does not know he his neglecting these birds ? I would doubt this very much and ignorance isn't an excuse where the law is concerned.

What I an saying is anyone can pass a test but what will make them continue to follow the correct actions ?

Jim

Honestly Jim he does not have a Scoobie.

What I'm saying is that people like him would not pass a reasonable test on falconry. Look at some of the recent posts on the Forum and you may well see proof of this :wink:

ps I do not consider myself an expert or a so-called expert.

Mike

[OutFlying]

I agree with your sentiments on idiots and clueless people, but without strict enforcement fail to see how you will make people obey the regulations.

This man should have been dealt with by the RSPCA, this is a failing on their behalf - not due to insufficient laws.

Jim.

ps Didn't all the hunt pacts have strict codes of conduct and practice - didn't make a bit of difference.

[MickeyDredd]

Okay mate, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Gotta go.

Mike

[OutFlying]

No problem Mike,
Good to be able to debate without falling out and losing the plot.

Yours Jim.

[Renton]

This man should have been dealt with by the RSPCA, this is a failing on their behalf - not due to insufficient laws.

OF; it is the SSPCA up in this part of the world. Clueless idiots that they are!

Mickey; I have a suspicion who that might be. Could you PM me just to confirm?