Red Tail Advice please

[Debbie]

Hey Everyone,

As many of you know I am helping a new friend man his Female RT up whilst he has his leg in plaster.

He took her on last year from a guy who basically nearly killed her. This will be her 3rd season her second with Garry. Although you cannot go by last season as he got her flying free but she was not in a good state so did not do much and then the moult came all too soon.

We have got to the part of flying on the creance she was happily coming about 6 to 9 feet in the conservatory no probs whatsoever so the next step was outside which went abit pearshaped as she was surrounded with new distractions like fresh air :roll:

I must add her weight is the same as when she was in the conservatory so as she was happily flying to me in there I cannot see why she will not out side.

Anyway she kinda trotts about the place when she lands on the ground abit like a vulture does and she will trott over to me rather than fly up to her perch and then to my glove. Garry said she has not done this before and I am now thinking oh heck this must be my fault as she will trott over to me rather than fly then she gets all tangled in the creance and I have to get her on the fist and untangle her which she allows me to do no prob and thankfully never baits all the time chattering to me as she does - probably saying hurry up woman :wink:

Garry says that her being more talkative is new as well she is more chatty but then I encourage that as i talk to her constantly I must stress she is NOT screaming just chortleing its really cute, its like she is telling me all about it like I can understand every word. Garry says he thinks its great and its a good thing and she is more stable with him aswell.

But I am starting to fear she is bonding with me alittle too well which I guess is good is it?? and she is happy whilst with Garry as well 8) but basically its all new to me this practical aspect as I have no idea whats normal or not and as Garry says this is his first RT as well.

Another thing when she baits and thankfully it happens hardly at all only when something outside scares her like the neighbour shouting cooeey over the fence which scared the life out of me aswell :lol: , but it really frightens me - understatement - it petrifies me. I lack the confidence to get her back up on the fist as I am scared of catching her flapping wings and hurting her plus she is so heavy and this great flapping mass that I have not really got the strength to get her back up. If anyone dares to say its all in the wrist movement or its really easy I will throttle them as I am really struggleing with this aspect of it this is the hardest thing I am having to deal with so far :( . And as she does not really do it I am not having enough baits to practice with her - which I very glad about as I am such a wreck dreading the next one.

When she does bate I just gently lower her to the ground and she rights herself and then jumps back on the glove then just chortles at me and sorts her feathers out and kinda looks right though me its really eerie like she knows how petrified I am. They say animals feel and sense our fear and I believe this 100%.

Any thoughts and tips and advice would be so very much appreciated.

And I have already had - get a lighter bird :lol:

Thanks everyone.

Debbie xxx

[Skeld]

As far as flying her outside, you really need to be feeding her away from the house. Try using a rabbit leg to keep her occupied whilst on the fist outside.A further weight reduction will probably be required to get her to respond in the great outdoors. When she bates lift her back onto the glove with your right hand,don't lower her to the floor! this will encourage her to bate even more!!
Regards
Dave

[FlameHairedFalconer]

Debbie - Phillip Glaisiers book has photographs of how to take hold of a hawk to assist it back onto the fist. With my ferru I tend to allow her to bate for a few seconds to see if she will regain the fist on her own, once it is apparent that she is not, I will put my hand BEHIND her, so that I am touching her back (thus away from her feet) and gently assist her back to the fist. You can also assist her onto the fist by holding her breast (steady boys!), and placing her on the glove. You should not be attempting to 'flick' her back onto the fist using the gloved hand. You need to be the calm and collected one on these occasions.

Make sure you do not reward her on the occasions that you have to assist her onto the fist, but do so once she settles.

I agree that a weight reduction may help her response outdoors, but also some additional manning outside would help. You really want her 100% focussed on the task in hand, not wandering about. You should also not reward her for walking to you. Her response will be different in a different environment as she is used to the conservatory and feels safe in there, she is not used to the garden/training ground and so if she is not 100% focussed on you as a food provider this suggests that her weight could come down to increase that focus.

I assume that her health is not in question and that she is fit and able to fly the distances you are calling her (i.e you are calling her the same distances that she is flying inside, outside - so you know she can)

Although you mention the 'bond' that you are building up with her, your main aim should be to get her flying free and hunting as soon as possible, as she is 3 years old and yet to be entered.

Good luck and good hawking!

FHF

[The Late Lord Lucan]

I must add her weight is the same as when she was in the conservatory so as she was happily flying to me in there I cannot see why she will not out side.

You have already given the answer Debbie........the next step was outside which went abit pearshaped as she was surrounded with new distractions

But I am starting to fear she is bonding with me alittle too well which I guess is good is it?? and she is happy whilst with Garry as well
I wouldn't be to concerned, just get her going and hunting a.s.a.p.
Be careful, it is well known that Reds (especially females) can get VERY aggressive once you start cutting them down for hunting. NEVER take your eye off the bird, never get complacent with her seemingly mild manners and always be prepared for the worst case scenario.

For remounting a bird that has bated from the fist, I use the hand across the chest method, thats just the way I'm comfortable with. I've been bitten a few times but it's not the end of the world.
You need to learn one of the methods quickly and get the confidence to do it. Having a bird flailing around after baiting is not a good thing.
Lowering the bird to the ground can also have a negative effect, the bird may feel that her hard flapping has got her to the floor rather than realising that you have lowered her there, thus she may start to think that if she bates enough, she will get to where she wants to go.

Redtails with verbal problems are not uncommon and aren't normally a negative thing. My old female was very chatty. She used to chatter away in the back of the car whilst asleep with her head under her wing!
You will at somepoint get the full on Redtail scream, it happens to be a sound that I am not unhappy about. Others get quite irritated by it.
The key here is getting as much successful hunting in as quickly as possible. This will also have a very positive effect of cutting down the aggression as well.
You will probably find that once hunting properly, she will be chatty at times, but generally silent in the field.

Regards,
Lucky.

[Hawkmaster]

I must add her weight is the same as when she was in the conservatory so as she was happily flying to me in there I cannot see why she will not out side.

How much walking and manning has she had outside?

Anyway she kinda trotts about the place when she lands on the ground abit like a vulture does and she will trott over to me rather than fly up to her perch and then to my glove.

Are you flying her the wrong way into wind?

What is the weight? Do not just lower her weight as you have been told as she may be TOO low already.

[Osiris]

What is the weight? Do not just lower her weight as you have been told as she may be TOO low already.

True statement. I'm having to bring my FHH down a bit more as she, like the RT, is distracted in the open. Bringing her weight down slightly each day until she is spot on in the open. After she is doing fine for the next few days, then i will start to bring her weight up again slowly.

[FlameHairedFalconer]

[quote]

What is the weight? Do not just lower her weight as you have been told as she may be TOO low already.

Debbie has already said she will fly up to 9 feet inside - I am assuming she is asking her to come the same distance outside.

This hawk has been flown before and thus Debbie should have some idea of her approximate response weight - note she states that the hawk has been mistreated prior to this season and has been flown but not yet been hunted. Her description of the hawks behaviour seems more indicative of a fat hawk taking the pee than a low hawk that is unable to fly. If Debbie has been rewarding her for this behaviour (inavertently I'm sure Debbie :) ) then she will continue to behave this way.

Perhaps it would be more sensible to say: "do not cut her rations sharply and try and get several ounces off her - check your training diary and see at what weights she has been most responsive, take your indications from there"


FHF

[Superfly]

Sorry to hijack the thread a bit, but it is RT training related. :)
On the subject of being vocal, does anyone have any suggestions as to why a bird would suddenly take to "talking"? I help man and train an FRT as part of my volunteer duties and she seems quite 'attached' to me. She tends to watch me every time I come in and gives me dirty looks if I go to handle another bird over her, over the last few visits I have noticed she is getting quite vocal. Not the full RT screech, but a sort of staccato repeating call, not unpleasant though. She has only taken to doing this over the past month or so, but I don't know if she does it when I'm not there on my volunteer visits, I'm guessing she does. I can't decide if it's food "something else" ;) or she has just got talkative this year.
Thought I'd ask as this is also the first time she's being trained, (she was dumped at the centre unwanted but has a lovely nature so she's hopefully going to be working in the flying displays). Don't know if it may be that she is more confident, she flys lovely on the creance and is very focussed.
I can't even say if it is a weight thing as though her weight was dropped, (she was hitting the fist rather hard at 2lb 14oz ), it's back up at present to around 31b 2oz (I swear she nips out for a curry at night :P), but that doesn't seem to impact how much chatter she does. Don't know about her background as she was 7 yrs old when she came in, she sits well, is remarkably pleasant and seems quite canny too, always watching the goings on and sussing out who has what and when.
Sorry again Debs for jumping in, just RT training is becoming quite useful for me. ;)

[MickeyDredd]

I help man and train an FRT as part of my volunteer duties and she seems quite 'attached' to me. She tends to watch me every time I come in and gives me dirty looks if I go to handle another bird over her, over the last few visits I have noticed she is getting quite vocal.
I can't even say if it is a weight thing as though her weight was dropped Don't know about her background as she was 7 yrs old when she came in

My female RT was 6 y-o last year and suddenly became vocal every time she saw me, even when I pulled up in the car. I soon discovered why when she laid an egg whilst tethered to the bow perch this spring :shock:

Could well be hormones, especially if weight has no impact, which was the case with my hawk also.

[Superfly]

ahh, must admit, it had crossed my mind, she certainly looks offended if I dare to work another bird and she is always watching me if I'm near the weatherings. Just my luck, I manage to pull a stunning looking bird, and it's of the feathered variety. :P ;) At least it won't get me into trouble with the wife hehe...

[Debbie]

Hello All,

Thanks for the replies.

Skeld - I know what you mean about feeding her away from the house but as training was indoors I had no choice but I know what you are saying.

FlamedHairedFalconer - Great comments and yeah the distance I am trying her at is the same if not shorter to start with. I have not rewarded her when I have had to get her back on the fist and I really am more of a wreck with her if she baits so I know that does not help at all. I am interested to know more about the helping her back up via her breast.
Rewarding when she walks to me - yeah I did as I thought her coming to me was what I wanted of her just flying rather than walking so she was halfway their. I agree she is a lazy little madam :lol:


LateLordLucan - Lucky thanks for that. Can you explain about the accross the chest method you use to get her back up? I am with you on the chatty it does not bother be at all after the noise some Parrots make BOP are really melodic and I love all the sounds so far. I have lowered her and each time she has just righted herself and just stares up at me as if to say Oi woman pick me up - but I hear that it could cause negativity and I agree I need to sort this soon.

Hawkmaster - I have walked her everywhere and even taken her out for a drive it seems and she is as steady as a rock when we go walkies but the creance work is the first bit of training outside where I want her to fly to me or jump to me in the open air kinda thing. As for the wind thing I don't know its a sheltered garden maybe, but its subtle, gentle breeze if that so it should not be a problem. Weight she is still heavy and has a several ounces to go.

Superfly - No probs hunny it was a question I commented on too.
I myself encourage her chattiness and thankfully Garry is supportive of this as he thinks is really nice. My Lady also watches everything and misses nothing sounds like you have a goodun like we have. Maybe she is just happier and more confident and just feels like telling everyone about it :lol:

MickeyDredd - Hormones well I guess that figures I will tell Garry to look out for that egg :o


Today's update well I decided to do our reading in the garden whilst walking about - I felt quite travel sick afterwards and near fell in the pond once :lol: She has not bated at all today so no chance to practice - in a way I was relieved.

She did jumps to the fist her weight is the same as Garry has kept it steady and the same and she jumped to the glove and flew to the glove at about 6 feet we did this for a while and I am very pleased.

She chatted none stop today - between Garry's wife and me and the bird I think he will be on the valium soon :lol: :lol:

As she did what she was supposed to today the plan is to drop her weight tomorrow. And Lucky I don't take my eyes off her - probably why I nearly landed in the pond for the second time today -- so maybe 3rd time lucky next time :cry: :cry:

many thanks

Debbs xx

[DorsetAde]

Hi Debbie

Sorry to do another hi-jack on your thread. The Vet at Ark-Aid in Canford Heath, Have you used him for BOP ? My red-tails due soon and I want to get it checked out and wondered if he'd do the job. Just wondered if you've had practical experience of him ?

Cheers
Ade

[The Late Lord Lucan]

Heres some pictures showing how I would replace the bird on the fist.
I prefer this method as I find that when done properly, the bird generally does not bate off again immediately after being put on the glove.
If you go for the 'under the back' method, I find some birds just bate straight off the front.
If you have a really jumpy bird, you can actually hold it in position for a few seconds for it to calm itself a little with this method.

Although it may look like I am throttling this bird, I'm not. It's not easy getting a large hand around a small bird.
Falcons tend to be the worst for biting with this method, most hawks aren't too much of a problem.

Regards,
Lucky.

[Hawkmaster]

Good job TLLL :!:

[Superfly]

Either that or he's a big LOTR fan and it's Elvish for some clever falconry term. :P

[Debbie]

Hi Debbie

Sorry to do another hi-jack on your thread. The Vet at Ark-Aid in Canford Heath, Have you used him for BOP ? My red-tails due soon and I want to get it checked out and wondered if he'd do the job. Just wondered if you've had practical experience of him ?

Cheers
Ade

Hi Ade,

Yip Pee a member from Dorset this makes 2

You mean David Hollah. I was at his yesterday actually collecting some bits and bobs. His fees are in line with everywhere else as well so you won't get ripped off. Very good bloke although I have only used him for my Parrakeet and Cats as I don't own my own BOP. He does however do some work for a local Raptor Rescue and he is kinda under the wing of Neil Forbes.

What I like about David is if he is any way unsure he will call someone more knowledgeable and confirm. David is very clued up about things so you will be in good hands. I have taken all my raptor recue finds to him.

If I had a BOP of my own I would use him as he is great and more to the point they are available 24/7 just if out of hours specify you need an Avian Vet and David is the man you usually get.

My Parrakeet has been under Neil Forbes and David for the weekly local treatment and I cannot fault the care.

There is another guy in Winton if that is nearer to you. We are lucky in our neck of the woods to have 2 Avian vet specialists :D :D

Hope this helps. I am running behind with my welcome pm's but will catch up with you soon - so you still have time to run away :lol: :wink:

Debbie xx

[Debbie]

Lucky,

Fabulous pictures thank you so very much for putting them up for me and the whole forum. Maybe when this thread has died a death Hawkmaster could move them to the archive section so they can be easily found by all. Very informative and terrific for training.

Being small handed myself I will be fine with small birds just will struggle with the larger ones. But to be honest I have little strength in my hands so I doubt it will make any difference.

Again she did not bate today so it could be a while before I can try this method. But I can definately see the merrits of this way of doing it for some birds in particular.

Thank you

Debbs xx

[DorsetAde]

Hi Debbie

Yep, two in Dorset !! Though falconry hadn't spread this far yet !! I used to live in Winton but recently moved out Wareham way so hopefully loads more land to fly on.

I'll give David a ring and chat to him abut the RT.

Thnaks for the info. You look like you're getting loads of help on your FRT

Cheers
Ade

[The Late Lord Lucan]

police please note the identifying marks on luckys left arm they apear to be arabic in origin

Its all washed off now. I had a change of disguise.
I'm now sporting a Maori 'Moko'.......

[Mary Quite Contrary]

I am training a Imprint Redtail at the moment who is so quite i think he has lost his voice and as he is near his flying weight. I am waiting to see if the final couple of ounces of tweaking will bring on the noise.

Foots me everyday, i think its love. :heart:
Well ard awker me! 8)