Breeding working dogs.

[Kennelre]

I have negligble direct experience in breeding.
So, for those of you who are actually involved in breeding or intend to be......What do you feel to be the best age for your bitch to have her first litter and does this vary according to breed?
How many litters do you feel it fair for your bitch to have before it potentially impacts on her health?
Lastly, how long does it take the bitch to recover her previous working form after a litter?


...Rene.

[HorseBox]

Hi Rene to be honest its a bit like how long is a piece of string it depends on the size of the dog as regards age of breeding ie i found that with small dogs a litter taken at around 12 months before the hips and surrounding area are set as it opens up the birth canal which can be restrictive in small breeds and with large dogs around 2 years old would be far better as it gives them time to mature and are usually roomier in the that area plus they usually have far bigger litters and obviously has a far grater impact on the bitch there is also the impact the owner has IE the care and diet of the bitch the age at which you start the pups lapping and then eating this includes all sizes and ages of bitches how many litters and to what age you breed with your bitch depends on her constitution and the condition in which she has been kept and looked after this is just a general view as it would take up a book but i have been involved with breeding dogs of one type or another since a child as was my father and grand father and have taken great pride in the quality in the dogs i have produced ATB Phil

[Miliscer]

Rene

Have a read of the "Book of the bitch"

Personally I would not even consider breeding from a dog that will be less than 2 years old at the time of whelping. (bitches)

My reasons for this are many but mainly because I would not breed from any dog that had not proved itself in the field, so a dog younger than this would not have even had one full seasons work. I will not use any dog for breeding that does not have ALL of the qualities I am looking for.

I also find a more mature dog makes a better mother.

Stud dogs I will not use until they have had at least one seasons work under their belts and again proven themselves to have no vices - there are too many dogs being bred as it is, so I would not consider using one that did not excel.

A fit and well worked bitch is always going to have a better time during the whelping and raising of the pups than a fat house pet ;) - I tend to find that a fit bitch is usually back to her shape by the time the pups are 6 weeks of age and back to full tilt by 14/16 weeks - spaniels are back in condition I find quicker than labs and its not unusual to have the dam out working before you have sold on the pups at 8 weeks!

Unlike some though I wont work a dam in whelp after about 2/3 weeks -they get brought in to the house and "pampered"

We usually limit our bitches to two litters about 18 months apart, especially the labs as they tend to have larger litters and this can be quite draining on any bitch. Occasionally we will have 3 litters from a bitch but this is very rare (I am just about to put a lab bitch to pup for her third litter, but only as her first two litters were exceptional and we want a bitch pup from her to keep)

These are just the way we do it - between us we have over 50 years of breeding experience and the welfare of the bitch and the pups is paramount to us.

Mike

[Goran]

Depends on the breed but terriers after 15 months of age, once a year and up to 8 years of age.

[Miliscer]

Depends on the breed but terriers after 15 months of age, once a year and up to 8 years of age.

Thats an awful lot of litters? 6? The bitch would spend half her time with or in pup? when is she supposed to be worked? or are they just purely for breeding?

[GaryPCO]

i generally wont serve a bitch up until its at least two years old or older.... and about three-poss four litters depending on the bitch...some handle litters better tha others again depending on the bitch and time of the year she can be out working again within two to three months...again building fitness and correct feeding is essential.... you wouldnt expecta bitch to do a full days work after being redundant for three-four months!!!

[PrinceOfTheWesternDesert]

i steer away from breeding young bitches,, cuz i often dont have confidence in young bitches,and in most medium to large breeds,, i couldnt tell you if i like most bitches enough to breed them before they are almost 3,,,different breeds are different, no doubt,,as far as what rules can be broken, and what can be accomplished,, its incredible how many people who breed bitches on thier first heat,based on stupidty, or pedigree, hoping to tie 1 bloodline to another in a short time,, have accomplished,,,, without upsetting anyone,, or naming names,,lol,,, check out the world of sled dogs

[Goran]

This is allowed but only if bitch deserves to be bred. I hunt my pregnant bitches first month and start when pups are 25-30 days old. Not much time wasted.

Thats an awful lot of litters? 6? The bitch would spend half her time with or in pup? when is she supposed to be worked? or are they just purely for breeding?

[HunterPaul]

Mike .... if you had not let your bitch have a litter at what age would you call it a day... my bitch is seven, and never been mated, I would love a pup from her, but feel she is too old... am I right in that thinking? I have never bred a dog before, as she is my first bitch... she is a wh viz... thanks in advance of your reply... Paul

[Kat67]

Mike .... if you had not let your bitch have a litter at what age would you call it a day... my bitch is seven, and never been mated, I would love a pup from her, but feel she is too old... am I right in that thinking? I have never bred a dog before, as she is my first bitch... she is a wh viz... thanks in advance of your reply... Paul

FYI.. You wouldnt be able to register a litter with the kennel club (if that was your desire) if the dam had reached the age of 8 at the date of whelping.

[HunterPaul]

FYI.. You wouldnt be able to register a litter with the kennel club (if that was your desire) if the dam had reached the age of 8 at the date of whelping.
cheers Kat... not bothered about making money from the litter and would personally give the pups away, just want a bitch for myself... but would never put scuzz... my bitch... in any danger.... so just wanted to know the ramifications of mating a dog so late in yrs for the first time.... will forget the idea, if any probs could occur... Paul

[PrinceOfTheWesternDesert]

any time you breed a bitch you take chances,, if you arent ready to take a risk,to some extent,, dont breed your dog,,,ive been through some bad ones,,, i have a vet now,, who will do a c section for 400 dollars as long as it is not an emergency,,,in other words,, as long as it isnt a mess already,lol

[HalkyWalky]

our bitch had her first litter age 6, she wasnt really a good mother at first didnt have much milk at first either and unfortunately we lost some puppies.However she got the hang of it and because she was still in good codition and we were conscious she would be soon too old we had another litter off her and she is a fantastic mother this time with loads of milk.

[Miliscer]

Mike .... if you had not let your bitch have a litter at what age would you call it a day... my bitch is seven, and never been mated, I would love a pup from her, but feel she is too old... am I right in that thinking? I have never bred a dog before, as she is my first bitch... she is a wh viz... thanks in advance of your reply... Paul

Paul - this bitch is coming up to 7 now, but she is fit and healthy - its a tough call, but a fit and healthy 7 year old "should" be fine!!

Your call though ;)

Mike

[GaryPCO]

FYI.. You wouldnt be able to register a litter with the kennel club (if that was your desire) if the dam had reached the age of 8 at the date of whelping.
Not strickyly right Kat if the bitch is in good health and hasnt been over bred a letter from your vet stating the bitch is in very good health etc they will allow a litter over the age of eight! as long as that bitch is fit and healthy i dont see wrong in it!
Paul - this bitch is coming up to 7 now, but she is fit and healthy - its a tough call, but a fit and healthy 7 year old "should" be fine!!

Your call though ;)

Mike
good post

[GaryPCO]

Mike .... if you had not let your bitch have a litter at what age would you call it a day... my bitch is seven, and never been mated, I would love a pup from her, but feel she is too old... am I right in that thinking? I have never bred a dog before, as she is my first bitch... she is a wh viz... thanks in advance of your reply... Paul
now is a good time to get something back from her paul specially with some of the breeding now on the forum id go to jim(falcongreen)aka herbie4 on the forum the bloodlines he has are exeptional.....

[Miliscer]

There is also a very nice WH Viz in Cheshire (Dont ask me the breeding!)

The guy is a falconer and can be seen on here occasionally, the dog won a FT last weekend and is 101% under birds and the gun. Cracking looking dog too.

PM me if you want his details.

Mike

[CJTaylor]

The best age as often quoted by vets is around 3 years and again at 6 years , ive bred a few litters over the years , and leaving a bitch beyond 6 for its first litter can be problematic , they are can often be bad to serve ! beyond a certain age , and also not as attentive with the pups. Two litters is all i would ever take , and probably only one to be honest. But at around 3 the bitch is in her physicl prime , she recovers fast , and has all her instinct in tact . Col

[Kennelre]

Thankyou for all your very informative replies...it's making very interesting reading.
I only ever had the one litter from a three year old bitch who I felt to be the 'best' of my Lurchers....and the one most likely to be a steady mum. In the event she wasn't half as interested as I was. Although the birth went without any complications she was a very lacklustre mum and required my constant attention in order not to walk away from them really. Perhaps this is not unusual with a maiden bitch?? ...or perhaps I failed to get some key issue right, I don't know.
Maybe she would have handled a second litter better but I only wanted the one in order to keep back a dog I'd bred myself. I've never been involved in anything quite so exhilirating or quite so terrifying as I negotiated a series of sleepless nights with worry about what could go wrong. Now, when ever anyone admires the dogs I say 'I bred this one'...like an ijjitt!!:lol: Can't seem to stop myself from being proud that we all came through the experience in one piece and there's a lovely lad to show for it.
I do find the whole area of breeding extremely interesting....don't know if my blood pressure can handle the reality of it though.:lol:


...Rene.

[MickeyDredd]

Gary

Does the KC have many rules regarding number or frequency of litters and if so would a vet letter always be accepted or could they over-rule it?

Cheers
Mike

Not strickyly right Kat if the bitch is in good health and hasnt been over bred a letter from your vet stating the bitch is in very good health etc they will allow a litter over the age of eight! as long as that bitch is fit and healthy i dont see wrong in it!

[Kat67]

Gary

Does the KC have many rules regarding number or frequency of litters and if so would a vet letter always be accepted or could they over-rule it?

Cheers
Mike

From kennel club page
a) The bitch has already whelped six litters, or

b) The bitch was under a year old at the date of mating, or

c) The bitch has already reached the age of eight years at the date of whelping.

N.B. Relief from the last restriction may be considered if an application is received by the Kennel Club prior to mating and provided the dam has previously whelped at least one other registered litter, and the application is supported by veterinary evidence confirming the suitability of the bitch involved in the proposed whelping. Ensure that your bitch is registered in your own name and that the stud dog is also Kennel Club registered and that the owners details are correct.

You will also need to ensure that your bitch's Kennel Club registration does not carry any breeding restrictions. If there are any, you will need to discuss this further with the person from whom you obtained the bitch, as any breeding restrictions will need to be removed before registration of a litter can take place. In most cases it will be the breeder who has placed the restriction, and they will therefore be the person empowered to remove it.

Although in Pauls case he's made it clear he wasnt interested in KC Reg he would have already needed to have had a reg litter out the bitch before the point I made originally was waivered anyway.

[MickeyDredd]

Cheers Kat.

Maybe a subject for a separate thread but is a breeding restriction enforceable in law? I see from what you have posted the KC wouldn't register any pups bred from a bitch with a breeding restriction but wonder if some could be bred without KC reg with no comeback other than having no papers.

I know some folk would be content to buy a well-bred pup without papers so wonder if this happens much?

Rgds
Mike

[Miliscer]

Cheers Kat.

Maybe a subject for a separate thread but is a breeding restriction enforceable in law? I see from what you have posted the KC wouldn't register any pups bred from a bitch with a breeding restriction but wonder if some could be bred without KC reg with no comeback other than having no papers.

I know some folk would be content to buy a well-bred pup without papers so wonder if this happens much?

Rgds
Mike

It probably does Mike - as I will point blank refuse to lift breeding restrictions on any of ours unless they have been health tested - some people wont pay out that kind of money to get their dogs screened.

Mike

[MickeyDredd]

Found this relating to commercial breeders which seems to tie in with the KC, or vice versa :D : Breeding and Sale of Dogs Welfare Act (1999):

2 Licence conditions
(1) In subsection (4) of section 1 of the 1973 Act (matters to which a local authority shall have regard in determining whether to grant a licence and about which conditions must be included in the licence), in paragraph (b) (dogs to be visited at suitable intervals, so far as necessary), omit “(so far as necessary)”.
(2) In that subsection, after paragraph (e) insert—
“(f) that bitches are not mated if they are less than one year old;
(g) that bitches do not give birth to more than six litters of puppies each;
(h) that bitches do not give birth to puppies before the end of the period of twelve months beginning with the day on which they last gave birth to puppies; and
(i) that accurate records in a form prescribed by regulations are kept at the premises and made available for inspection there by any officer of the local authority, or any veterinary surgeon or veterinary practitioner, authorised by the local authority to inspect the premises;”,

[T Jack]

Some info i took from a breeders website, on KC terms..

KC regulations state that no bitch shall be bred from until her second season or the age of one year or after the age of eight years old or more frequently than once each year.

hope that helps?

[HunterPaul]

thanks for the info guys... she has just finished a season last week... she only has one a yr... so I will consider the situation next yr... mike if it works that way, I will be in touch for advice etc... if thats ok... Paul

[Himiko]

Some interesting reading. There seems to be much more emotion involved in much of the material than science. Most vets in NA suggest it is healthier to breed a bitch back to back with litters because of the lower risk of cancers associated with breeding and rearing young then when the desire to terminate breeding is reached the bitch is spayed.

In NA it use to be unacceptable to breed sporting breeds before their hips were tested for HD. Formerly this couldn't be done until the dogs were 2. A new acceptable method is now available after 6 mo. The value of this method is having info earlier so if breeding was contemplated for the future plans could continue or be abandoned and information could be used to prevent further litters from the same breeding prior to additional litters being whelped.

8 years without application for exception is also standard with my registry.

Personally I don't breed prior to field testing, 2 years of age. hips tested and pups being sold. (I don't breed to anything that doesn't meet the same standard). I also would never cross-breed.