Female harris cross Male Goshawk.

[PeelsBells]

Is there any breeders out there who have tried to cross the gos with a harris or is it impossible because of their difference in genes.
I know they have crossed a coppers hawk and a harris with quite some success.
I believe throught talking to some breeders that they have tried by AI but with no success only to 16 weeks old then they have problems.
Speaking to vets friends they say its possible but only if the right chromasones are present.
I know all you people out there with be saying whats the point of the cross but rememeber thing dont stand still and something good my comeout of it but may be not.
Please only people who want to put advise up no sarkey comments as i have a female harris who has just been rasied by a gos she is 22 weeks old and she has been in with other goshawks all this time no problems no fighting just sitting together no aggresstion.
If the feed back that is its impossible i will heed the advice and just fly the bird.

All the best

Andy

[Graham Stuart]

i dont see any benifits in trying to cross these birds, most cross breeds usually have problems, and they are pretty much perfect killing machines as thay are......why medle with nature

[PeelsBells]

I guess you didnt read the post properly , i said some people dont agree but i am not asking for there advice.

[Graham Stuart]

i can read and i know what you said but in my opinion only a fool would even try and breed these together.....were YOU ;-) going to try....lol

[Graham Stuart]

surelly the welfare of the bird is the most important thing, why breed birds just for the sake of it and end up with young with problems, anyone who cares about wildlife wouldnt consider this..

[Moses]

sounds interesting, cant wait for a batch of hargos's :D

[Graham Stuart]

Frankenstien's all of you:lol:

[SakerYZF]

Sure someone must have tried , can't see if they can produce hoopershawks , they can't produce gos/harris's ...
be interesting to see anyway.

[Tim Laycock]

Firstly....Hatchabilty of the eggs is the issue, Fertility is not.

Secondly, The very Idea of such an abortion makes me feel like spewing my ***in guts up.

Why would anyone would wish to-

A) Slow a Gos down.

B) Try to give a Gos any more brain than the ample amount it is already blessed with.

Why do people want to make Harris hawks faster, If you feel the need for speed and think you can appreciate the flavour and manage the husbandry.

Buy a Goshawk

Nuff said!!!!!!!!!!!

[Moses]

Firstly....Hatchabilty of the eggs is the issue, Fertility is not.

Secondly, The very Idea of such an abortion makes me feel like spewing my ***in guts up.

Why would anyone would wish to-

A) Slow a Gos down.

B) Try to give a Gos any more brain than the ample amount it is already blessed with.

Why do people want to make Harris hawks faster, If you feel the need for speed and think you can appreciate the flavour and manage the husbandry.

Buy a Goshawk

Nuff said!!!!!!!!!!!


i do agree in what u r saying mate, but the same was said in the early days like andy said about the hybrids,look at the gyr.sakers, peregrine sakers etc

their doing a good job, so u never know maybe it can be the accipter of the century :D tame and odediant and same time a ruthless killer like a gos

but hey were only wishful thinking

[Moses]

wouldnt that have been the argument when breeders started with hybrid falcons ?

i can see both sides of the dibate but im sure many wernt keen on gyrxsakers perexsakers perexmerlins but all have turned out to be very good birds


Andy..........


mate it was the same arguements when whites and coloured folk were breeding :D look at em now so beautiful, mix white with asian u get the =italian and spanish race, u cant beat that :D nice and tanned best of both worlds , mix a negro with a white person= scary spice and alot of other nice lassies, class

[HunterPaul]

mate it was the same arguements when whites and coloured folk were breeding :D look at em now so beautiful, mix white with asian u get the =italian and spanish race, u cant beat that :D nice and tanned best of both worlds , mix a negro with a white person= scary spice and alot of other nice lassies, class
never ever put class and scary spice in the same sentence...

[Moses]

never ever put class and scary spice in the same sentence...


lol i didnt actually mean her as class, just look at alicia keys :D what a beauty, lets stick to the hawk breeding and not go aff subject , i only said it coz thats how people were against inter racial breeding too and i read some early books, they didnt like breeding hybrids at all in the early days

but it worked out

dont know if gos and harris will be successful, but u never know , it might turn up awesome

[OutFlying]

Is there any breeders out there who have tried to cross the gos with a harris or is it impossible because of their difference in genes.
I know they have crossed a coppers hawk and a harris with quite some success.
I believe throught talking to some breeders that they have tried by AI but with no success only to 16 weeks old then they have problems.
Speaking to vets friends they say its possible but only if the right chromasones are present.
I know all you people out there with be saying whats the point of the cross but rememeber thing dont stand still and something good my comeout of it but may be not.
Please only people who want to put advise up no sarkey comments as i have a female harris who has just been rasied by a gos she is 22 weeks old and she has been in with other goshawks all this time no problems no fighting just sitting together no aggresstion.
If the feed back that is its impossible i will heed the advice and just fly the bird.

All the best

Andy

Without AI not a chance of a gos and a harris breeding naturally.

[OutFlying]

wouldnt that have been the argument when breeders started with hybrid falcons ?

i can see both sides of the dibate but im sure many wernt keen on gyrxsakers perexsakers perexmerlins but all have turned out to be very good birds


Andy..........

I'm sure many hybrids are bred just for the money and not for superior abilities in the field.

So looking at harris x goshawk - what is it that a hybrid could improve on or above its separate species ?

Gyrs where crossed to improve health issues, pere x saker for improved crashing in and footing etc, pere-merlin to get a bigger merlin/smaller peregrine type falcon but I fail to see what this hybrid between a harris and gos would bring.

OF.

[Mary Quite Contrary]

mate it was the same arguements when whites and coloured folk were breeding :D look at em now so beautiful, mix white with asian u get the =italian and spanish race, u cant beat that :D nice and tanned best of both worlds , mix a negro with a white person= scary spice and alot of other nice lassies, class



Yo Moses

I thought you had stopped the glue sniffing?

Reading this post it seems you may be back on it!

[Moses]

Yo Moses

I thought you had stopped the glue sniffing?

Reading this post it seems you may be back on it!



lol why mate u no into global mixing :D u dont need to be on drugs to appreciate a tanned body do ya

[Tim Laycock]

As far as ethics go the birds are from a completly different genus!

The result would be an abomination :!:

Why not try to cross a dog with a cat :roll:

They are both four legged mamals :roll:

[OutFlying]

BB,
As I see it, how could people predict you'd get just the qualities of both hawks when they come from complete different families of type.

How about a gos cross that has broadwings, a fear of dogs, is noisy and has poor weather proofing ?

[MattSpar]

BB,
As I see it, how could people predict you'd get just the qualities of both hawks when they come from complete different families of type.

How about a gos cross that has broadwings, a fear of dogs, is noisy and has poor weather proofing ?

Sounds like a gos I once had.

[Talon]

Yo Moses

I thought you had stopped the glue sniffing?

Reading this post it seems you may be back on it!


P.M.S.L that was class that cc,

[OutFlying]

Sounds like a gos I once had.


Unlucky :)

[PeelsBells]

In 1984 they produced the first Coopers/Harris and in stead of the Coopers running in under growth it used its speed and brains and turned into a excelent hunting hawk for different types of game which the coopers would not even look at.
I can understand gos people thinking this is a joke but all the same was said when the harris came over, it was ugly , **** , not worth the wan*. Put its proven in the field it can do everything a gos can do and more. Just the speed is the issue.
See if people were as blinkered as some of you we would not have the highbreds and falconry would not have lept forward to better hunting and more spectacular flights,
which we can see today.Cross breeding in other animals has worked for the better this can be seen in running dogs.
Mistakes will be made but time is of the essence and i believe if it can be done the right way in 10 years time people will not blink aneye at the though of this highbred.
So as i asked the first time is there anyone out there who has tried this or has any eveidence what the problems were.
Just one last point they said a harris would not breed with a red naturaly but its happening up and down the country,
as people are breeding the spar/gos
Whats the point you can have buy a small German male which will only take the same as the spar.
I believe the point is IF IT CAN BE DONE WITH OUT COMPLICATIONS LETS SEE WHAT THE FUTURE HAS TO HOLD.

[MattSpar]

It should be pointed out that in the case of dogs, this is not actually cross breeding in the same sense. I do see what you're driving at however.

[Tim Laycock]

Exactly OF, there is no gaurentee what you will get.

When people daydream about hybrids it is very easy to get lost in ideals without giving much thought to the possible outcome of putting seamen from X into Y.

Those that have bred birds will perhaps have a good idea of how it feels to have a nest full of chicks die through no fault of their own.

Imagine if the same nest of chicks died because of the breedses desire to pioneer and be the first:roll:

I know how I would feel about it!

[OutFlying]

Andy,
At first you asked if a natural pairing was possible - I don't think it is. As for spar / gos these are AI creations and haven't heard anything about successful ones being flown in this country, and I'm very confident if they were good we would know about it.


What is this cross going to be ideally ? a gos that does what ? or a harris that can do what ?

Jim.

[OutFlying]

In 1984 they produced the first Coopers/Harris and in stead of the Coopers running in under growth it used its speed and brains and turned into a excelent hunting hawk for different types of game which the coopers would not even look at.
I can understand gos people thinking this is a joke but all the same was said when the harris came over, it was ugly , **** , not worth the wan*. Put its proven in the field it can do everything a gos can do and more. Just the speed is the issue.
See if people were as blinkered as some of you we would not have the highbreds and falconry would not have lept forward to better hunting and more spectacular flights,
which we can see today.Cross breeding in other animals has worked for the better this can be seen in running dogs.
Mistakes will be made but time is of the essence and i believe if it can be done the right way in 10 years time people will not blink aneye at the though of this highbred.
So as i asked the first time is there anyone out there who has tried this or has any eveidence what the problems were.
Just one last point they said a harris would not breed with a red naturaly but its happening up and down the country,
as people are breeding the spar/gos
Whats the point you can have buy a small German male which will only take the same as the spar.
I believe the point is IF IT CAN BE DONE WITH OUT COMPLICATIONS LETS SEE WHAT THE FUTURE HAS TO HOLD.

"Plus its proven in the field a harris can do everything a gos can and more" - what do you mean by this statement, I don't know of a single harris that can match an equally fit gos - so performance at gamebirds isn't in the same league, if it can do more why cross it with the inferior goshawk. You then mention a harris needs more speed, so this cross would be purely to give the harris a bit more speed but slow the gos down ?

[PeelsBells]

couldnt agree more andy i read quite a lot on the coopersxharris and it sounds like a good bird infact i may know somone who has flown one

i will find the email addy for the guy that did manage a harrisxgos and see if he can fill us in more

Andy thanks for your time at least someone is getting the point of this thread ?



Andy.........
Andy thanks for your time at least someone is getting the point of this thread ?

The point of interbreeding is to find a happy medium between both of the species and develop into a ( i hope)
A bird what every falconer would want!

[MattSpar]

I suppose the real answer is we dont know what will happen. It's a free country PeelsBells, why not have a crack at it?

[OutFlying]

Isn't the point of falconry to try and catch prey in a natural way ?

Exactly what is it that you need to improve on either species without being wooly. What can't you do with your harris that needs improving on ? or the same for a gos ?

Jim.

[MattSpar]

Personally, I quite agree with OutFlying, but as I said, it's a free country.

[HunterPaul]

Isn't the point of falconry to try and catch prey in a natural way ?

Exactly what is it that you need to improve on either species without being wooly. What can't you do with your harris that needs improving on ? or the same for a gos ?

Jim.
ive been following the thread and trying to stay out of it ..as I read and understood your initial request ...but Im afraid I think outflyings statement says it all for me...

[Bones]

Isn't the point of falconry to try and catch prey in a natural way ?

Exactly what is it that you need to improve on either species without being wooly. What can't you do with your harris that needs improving on ? or the same for a gos ?

Jim.
sorry mate but what do you mean when you say the natural way?
without the aid of dogs/ferrets as the birds wouldnt be using them, in the wild and again as all ready stated why hybrid falcons i think any bird when trained right and in the right enviorement will catch what it would naturally in the wild is it just to boost the falconers ego as his or her bird is taking bigger and better quarry then some one else's because it has been genetically messed with to do so if thats the case then get a pure bred bird like a gos that will take most forms if not all forms of quarry that is put in front of it and have some real fun lol
thats opened a can of worms i bet i will wait for the critersism lol
no offence by the way jim just stating my oppinions mate

[Moses]

P.M.S.L that was class that cc,


lol dont blame him, hawka spread the rumour ages ago :D

[OutFlying]

No offense taken,

In a natural way - by this I mean choosing the right natural species of hawk for the given quarry. For example if I wanted to fly blackbirds, I fly a spar not cross a spar with something else that normally couldn't do the job to achive the result. Nature has already provided us with the tools of the trade. :)

[Bones]

No offense taken,
ok no worries
PAUL

[GDN]

Out flying

I'm with you on this 1. If it walks, crawls or flies the chances are that mother nature has designed something to kill it. That't nature's way.

I am not a big fan of any crosses be it falcons, eagles or hawks. I always feel there is a compromise. You might say "oh it is to get the best out of each" but you will loose something as well. Just because we can do something doesn't mean it is right.

Also you can't put a thread up here and say "oh and i don't want to hear any body saying anything against my point or question" the whole point of a forum is to discuss things. If you put a point or thread up expect to get other peoples opinions.

The HH and the Gos are both excellent birds in their own right with their own plus points and minuses. If it can be done then fair enough but i wouldn't rush out to buy 1. You will probally pay more money for something that is not quite as good as a pure Gos or HH for 1 reason or another.

[PeelsBells]

Its nice to see people are passionate about the sport and i would like to thank all who have PM me with info on this subject as it will help me in the future.
Like it or not hybrids are here to stay and man will endevor to perfect on mother nature. As you are aware mother nature doest get it right all the time and developing systems through knowledge and experience i feel there could be much improvement on both birds.

[PeelsBells]

"Plus its proven in the field a harris can do everything a gos can and more" - what do you mean by this statement, I don't know of a single harris that can match an equally fit gos - so performance at gamebirds isn't in the same league, if it can do more why cross it with the inferior goshawk. You then mention a harris needs more speed, so this cross would be purely to give the harris a bit more speed but slow the gos down ?

I have flown goshawks on the runway with not much success as the temperment of the bird is of scatty nature not bomb proof and not as steady as a rock.As the sound of the engines makes the bird unpredictable. The harris on the other hand will sit at the side of the aircraft when engine tests are running. I have never seen a gos circual above my head for 10 mins waiting for the dog to flush a hare.
The gos on the other hand will nail hares for fun. Tail chase and give its all. The 2 birds are different in every way, this is why there is a space for a hybrid.From my experience i have found the harris lasts longer in the field and doent burn out as fast.I have seen goshawks go glycomic and need injections to bring them around when was the last time you had a harris do this.
Could you also tell i said "You then mention a harris needs more speed", you said "so this cross would be purely to give the harris a bit more speed but slow the gos down" ?
Nobody knows if it will slow the gos down as there hasnt been a hybrid yet. Look at the positives sides

[OutFlying]

Scattyiness can be solved with imprinting, also if you take a gos so low its has problems with low blood sugar you shouldn't own one. Why do you need a gos to wait on, the reason most people fly a gos is the pure speed of one. If it was waiting on why would it then require the speed of a gos - a harris will wait on and kill from a pitch, doesn't seem to be a need for a hybrid there. Not all gosses will kill hares, a harris can kills hares - all hawks are faster than a hare - again doesn't seem to be a need for a super hawk (hybrid) to do the job.

Why not cross a harris with an owl, then you can hunt at night on the runway without a lamp :)

[PeelsBells]

If you read my last statement you will see that goshawks are prone to have sugar problems in the field if hunted hard.You may fly your birds at weekend or a couple a days throught the week.But i fly everyday 24/7 weather permitting. The harris is a lot hardy bird and feathers are less septable to brake.
Less stress in the harris.

[OutFlying]

Fly everyday, as hard as anyone else but when your catching at the same time you have to stop or you will have a pile of **** on your glove that will refuse the long flights. Usually take over a 100 gamebirds in a season without the need for more than 1 or 2 a day. Seen gosses take 14 rabbits in a morning - what do you fly 24/7 and catch allday without upsetting your harris ???????

[OutFlying]

No fit gos in high condition will go low on a days hunting.

[PeelsBells]

Fly everyday, as hard as anyone else but when your catching at the same time you have to stop or you will have a pile of **** on your glove that will refuse the long flights. Usually take over a 100 gamebirds in a season without the need for more than 1 or 2 a day. Seen gosses take 14 rabbits in a morning - what do you fly 24/7 and catch allday without upsetting your harris ???????

Firstly i have never upset my harris knowinly the expression for 24/7 is i fly at night and through the day when the runway needs to be clear. I dont know many people who fly their gos at night.
You talk of 14 rabbits in a morning thats good!
But can we get back to the original thread "you said about to improver the gos" do you believe there feathers are very easy to break and need to be imped sometime in the season.
Low sugar (i said i have seen birds go low never mentioned my birds).Please read the thread and dont jump in with both feet.

[OutFlying]

Low sugar - I'm not jumping in with both feet or accusing you personally of having a gos do it, BUT I am saying if the gos goes low in the field then the management of that gos is **** poor. A fit healthy, high condition gos will handle anything you can throw at it in terms of flight endurance within reason.

[PeelsBells]

Please can you answer the next question "Do you beleive the gos could be improved with better feathers.?

[OutFlying]

Why will the gos be breaking feathers ? they seem to manage in the wild. Most feather damge on a gos is caused by poor husbandry in the mews. If I have to imp during the season (which is rare in an adult gos) it usually an accident against a fence etc.

[PeelsBells]

Your still not answering the question?

[Flying High]

i found this thread the other day and i have been keeping my eye on it. as it was said in another thread its a free country di what you want but i have very strong feeling about hybrids and that is don't do it. man has been mucking with nature for years now and not always for the best. i belive that there is a certain bird for a certain job so way muck with it and like it has already be said don't waste to very good birds.
i know all of this as already be said but i feel strongly about this so i thought i might put my money worths in.

[PeelsBells]

Its nice to here you opion.

[OutFlying]

Your still not answering the question?

Sorry I hadn't seen your question before posting my earlier reply. I don't and never have had a problem with gos feathers - so don't need to change them.

Don't you think the structure of a gos feathers adds to its speed of flight ?

[Goldie]

Andy, i have been looking for information on the subject before i posted, however as yet been unable to find the article i was looking for.
It is in relation to the fact that this cross has been done and that the chicks hatched, but on each occasion never survived beyond 7 or 8 days. This scenario happened on a few occasions.

[PeelsBells]

Yes but thats the point of the thread can we improve on a great bird and if so what are the consequences.
Thats the reason i put this thread up in the first place.

[PeelsBells]

Cheers goldie if you find it let me know.

[OutFlying]

I know that a brown gos juvenile plumage with softer feathers is nowhere near as fast as when in adult plumage - so would a gos with harris plumage be any good ?

[Onyx25]

I'm sure many hybrids are bred just for the money and not for superior abilities in the field.

So looking at harris x goshawk - what is it that a hybrid could improve on or above its separate species ?

Gyrs where crossed to improve health issues, pere x saker for improved crashing in and footing etc, pere-merlin to get a bigger merlin/smaller peregrine type falcon but I fail to see what this hybrid between a harris and gos would bring.

OF.
Hi dnt want to upset anyone here but I believe on this hybrid debate in general either you are for or againat hybrids. Falcons do naturally cross in the wild and captivity but the pere/merlin or gyr/ merlin is completely unnatural so how can that b right and a harris/ gos not? Personally I would not want one of these crosses as I love gosses too much but consider this what is the harris any way? Hawk Falcon or natural hybrid I personally believe the latter any ideas?

[Onyx25]

Hi dnt want to upset anyone here but I believe on this hybrid debate in general either you are for or againat hybrids. Falcons do naturally cross in the wild and captivity but the pere/merlin or gyr/ merlin is completely unnatural so how can that b right and a harris/ gos not? Personally I would not want one of these crosses as I love gosses too much but consider this what is the harris any way? Hawk Falcon or natural hybrid I personally believe the latter any ideas?
Meant hawk/buzzard sorry guys

[Barbary Boy]

i wish hybreds would go away, no need for them in my opinion!

[MattSpar]

I believe that in falconry, as in every other field of life, there's room for everyone's individuality. If PeelsBells wishes to try producing a gos/harris' hybrid who are we to decry it? Whether it be useful to the sport can only be discovered by experiment. The proof of the pudding......
Those who, for their own, perfectly acceptable reasons, are against the production of hybrids, can just continue to fly pure species. I, for one, would be most interested to know the results.
Should LeighJauncey read this, perhaps, being a biologist (amongst other things), and more knowedgable on the subject than some, he might comment on the aspect of hybridisation between genera?

[Harrisii]

As far as ethics go the birds are from a completly different genus!

The result would be an abomination :!:

Why not try to cross a dog with a cat :roll:

They are both four legged mamals :roll:


BB is right. the falcon hybrids all hail from the same genus, ie"falco" and are closer related than hawks and buzzards.
goshawks and harrises are too far apart to rear viable and healthy hybrids.
buzzard and redtails, no probs, pere' saker, no probs, coopers and spars no probs, gos and harris, mmmmmmm. dont fancy your chances.
having said that the coopers are from the genus accipiter as is the gos, but i dont believe the cooper X harris hybrids are healthy working birds.

oh, just get a harris!!

[Wilded]

Hi dnt want to upset anyone here but I believe on this hybrid debate in general either you are for or againat hybrids. Falcons do naturally cross in the wild and captivity but the pere/merlin or gyr/ merlin is completely unnatural so how can that b right and a harris/ gos not? Personally I would not want one of these crosses as I love gosses too much but consider this what is the harris any way? Hawk Falcon or natural hybrid I personally believe the latter any ideas?

There is no evidence to show that the harris is a hybrid anything. What are you saying it is? I do know that they are the best evolved hawk in a desert habitat.

[Barbary Boy]

theres a picture of a coopersXharris in nick foxes book im sure, do people realise why hybrid falcons started?

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

hi everyone, a few of you who expressed total disslike towards hybrids, you are all obviosly entitled to your own opinion, but I would like to give some more backround information on the subject. In 2000 I went to sharijah bird market in the uae, it was absolutely terrible, the shops where full of falcons, anything from 10 kestrels put in a small parrot cage sitting on top of eachother, hobbies lying in the sand with broken legs, seriosly dehydrated red nape shaheens and 100 eds of saker falcons (room after room full of them) they where all traped from the wild from various places in the world. The year after (I might be out a little bit on years so dont slay me if Im wrong please) the uae stoped all importing of wild falcons,they signed for CITES. One of the main reasons for this was that they got supplyed with falcons that they could not get hold of in the wild, falcons that are non existent so can not be wild caught, falcons that in thier eyes where far superiour to the pure breed falcons, the hybrids!! Today if you go to the uae and have 5 facons in a room, one female wild peregrine, one female wild saker one female wild gyr and one female gyr/peregrine, captive breed. Unless the gyr is very white (and I mean very) most arabs, if not all, will choose the female gyr/peregrine. By producing hybrids we have taken a huge pressure of the wild population of falcons. If hybrids all over the world would stop tomorrow, do you think arabs would stop falconry? No, would they start to buy pure breed? No, they would go back to buy falcons cheap (if you compere to the price of a captive falcon, concidering the price in producing them) from pakistani trappers (absolute no offence to pakistani ore trappers) and we would be back to a very bad situation for wild falcons. So if we look a little bit further then what we would like to see fly from our fist and not, lets look at what hybrids actually done to indirectly to protect wild birds. Also, as someone mentioned earlier "some hybrids breed only for money". If anyone here breed falcons for a living, and have no other job on the side and still think that they earn loods of money on hybrids with no struggle, let me know the secret pease.... However on the harris and gos hybrid question I have nothing to say either for ore against it as I cant see anything really badly wrong with it, and nothing really benificial either, but for the breeding hybrids argument, please reserch the subject in question before you jump to a opinion. No personal offence to anyone out there.

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

oops, 5 falcons in a room, well you have to make the fift one up yourself. LOL

[LeighJauncey]

Intergeneric hybridization is fairly common in horticulture but rarer in animals - it has been done with fish and has produced the same advantageous combinations of characteristics as with interspecific hybridization. There isn't any biological reason why it should be possible - as it seems to have been done already that's pretty obvious. As to whether it's worth trying - no one will ever know what it'll turn out like until they try - it could be great - or completely useless - it would be nice to find out.

[Barbary Boy]

im sure some of our american friends can clarify this but i seem to remember that in the states quite a while ago they couldnt fly pure bred falcons due to the ddt rare falcons thing,the breeders couldnt sell pures so they experimented with hybridisation, following ronald stevens success with a natural pair of pereXsaker (i had one of these in 1976 ,cracking bird) the successfull next few years shaped falconry forever. there is probably no going back now, love them or hate them,hybreds are here to stay ,but they are another bullet in the antis gun just like none indigeonous raptors are. i dont think many of you out there realise how fragile our sport is!!!

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Yes I know BB and belive me I certainly relise how fragile the sport is!! But the hybrids are actually needed, that was not the intention when they where first tryed, but now they are very importent, and antis will find any excuse to hate the sport; hybrids, thethered birds, un native birds, hacking, hunting, you name it, they will find something to go down on us for. But if we try to change and adapt our sport to what we think will be accepteble for them, then they have already won.
no offence again

[SakerYZF]

OK before anyone jumps down my throat... metaphorically speaking i mean, I've not read the whole 6 pages of banter but;
If speed with harris hawks is the issue then how about this, selective breeding, put pairs of harris hawks together that show faster than average acceleration, some male harris hawks CAN catch pheasants off the glove deny it gos boys but they do exist, perhaps not the super fast cock pheasants that give even the best goshawks a real run for there money, but early season pheasants and some of the slower individuals that exist out there.
Perhaps the answer is to cross these super quick males with well.. Super quick females... and keep doing it eventually if genetics have logic you will produce faster Harris hawks,
Although having said the above wouldn’t it be nice to have goshawks with the most indestructible feathers on this planet:D
Dunno if anyone has read and article that Harry McElroy wrote, comparing male Harris hawks to female coopers and on the issue of acceleration I’ll quote. The male Harris has impressive acceleration and can climb straight up for some distance from the ground. At the refulsh, we see more quail taken in the air by the male Harris than the female coopers"
Anyway Im off to work to fly my Pere/saker ... nice mix that;)

[OutFlying]

Sakeryzf,
In Desert hawking 3 by Harry McElroy, such a breeding program has been established - only the fastest harris were included into the breeding program. But it seems in this country that its just a matter of throwing any pair together - whether it was any good at hunting or not..........As long as their big :)

OF.

[SakerYZF]

Sigh, guess then we can't expect to see that happening in the Uk untill everyone gets over needing the "biggest" as apposed to "best" harris hawk.
Next time i phone for a harris hawk i'll wait till i hear .. "well the birds aren't that big, but there parents have killed every living creature a seventy mile radius and i've had to give up hunting and breeding from them";)

[Barbary Boy]

hi everyone, a few of you who expressed total disslike towards hybrids, you are all obviosly entitled to your own opinion, but I would like to give some more backround information on the subject. In 2000 I went to sharijah bird market in the uae, it was absolutely terrible, the shops where full of falcons, anything from 10 kestrels put in a small parrot cage sitting on top of eachother, hobbies lying in the sand with broken legs, seriosly dehydrated red nape shaheens and 100 eds of saker falcons (room after room full of them) they where all traped from the wild from various places in the world. The year after (I might be out a little bit on years so dont slay me if Im wrong please) the uae stoped all importing of wild falcons,they signed for CITES. One of the main reasons for this was that they got supplyed with falcons that they could not get hold of in the wild, falcons that are non existent so can not be wild caught, falcons that in thier eyes where far superiour to the pure breed falcons, the hybrids!! Today if you go to the uae and have 5 facons in a room, one female wild peregrine, one female wild saker one female wild gyr and one female gyr/peregrine, captive breed. Unless the gyr is very white (and I mean very) most arabs, if not all, will choose the female gyr/peregrine. By producing hybrids we have taken a huge pressure of the wild population of falcons. If hybrids all over the world would stop tomorrow, do you think arabs would stop falconry? No, would they start to buy pure breed? No, they would go back to buy falcons cheap (if you compere to the price of a captive falcon, concidering the price in producing them) from pakistani trappers (absolute no offence to pakistani ore trappers) and we would be back to a very bad situation for wild falcons. So if we look a little bit further then what we would like to see fly from our fist and not, lets look at what hybrids actually done to indirectly to protect wild birds. Also, as someone mentioned earlier "some hybrids breed only for money". If anyone here breed falcons for a living, and have no other job on the side and still think that they earn loods of money on hybrids with no struggle, let me know the secret pease.... However on the harris and gos hybrid question I have nothing to say either for ore against it as I cant see anything really badly wrong with it, and nothing really benificial either, but for the breeding hybrids argument, please reserch the subject in question before you jump to a opinion. No personal offence to anyone out there.
do you have any pics from that visit to the bird market i know i would find them interesting even if they are a little disturbing

[Onyx25]

There is no evidence to show that the harris is a hybrid anything. What are you saying it is? I do know that they are the best evolved hawk in a desert habitat.
The harris is perfect at what it does granted but they dont seem to be either accipiter or buteo more inbetween the two. eg:accipiter; long tail legs and toes also head shape hawk like.
Buteo; soft feathers, temperement eye colour ( what true hawk has brown eyes )? wings between the two not as short as a gos but not as broad as an RT. They can hunt in a similar way to both birds but my resoning is strangely enough from this hybridisation angle.
It is well noted how easily falcons cross breed even doing it in the wild ( altai saker=gyr/saker and cassini peregrine just like a gyr/peregrine ) but one could not cross falcon to hawk. One could breed between Buteos ( ferrutail ) or between accips ( coopers/spar, before you all jump on me I Know where their are 2 which will be 3 years old now ) But we could not cross to my knowledge buteo to accipiter for the same reasons a falcon could not breed with an accipiter so how come the harris' can interbreed with coopers ( been done ) and redtail ( been done) unless somewhere down the line they are slightly related to both or are they just a species unto themselves?

[Barbary Boy]

(what true hawk has brown eyes) what true falcon has yellow eyes?-greater kestrel! i think with enough messing around a lot of unexpected hybrids could be produced. but why/? i had a mate produce prairieXkestrels very succesfully for years,peregrines have bred with prairies in the wild in america, was this released birds wrongly reared?who knows! i dont think hybrids are wrong in principle but people should think carefully about why they want to try a particular cross, there is a lot of pure birds out there that do us just fine.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

The point that people are missing in this is the suffering element. I breed hybrids. Sometimes I like them sometimes I dont. The Hoopers (Harris/Coopers) has an aproximate 50% survival rate from egg to 2yrs, when genetics brake up! Why knowingly breed something with this mine field ahead of it? Cash! And the attitude I can so I will **** the ethics. Why produce a bird that has that chance of dying painfully during its early years.

[Parabuteo.de]

.... Seen gosses take 14 rabbits in a morning - what do you fly 24/7 and catch allday without upsetting your harris ???????

Seen my male HH with 615 gramms catching 10 Rabbits in a morning! Can you do that with your male gos? Have you ever caught Blue Hare with your Gos? Or two pheasants, two rabbits and a crow at one day?
I think you might be able to do the same with a Gos, it depends on the techique the hawk uses,how good he actually is and how good you know your hawk.
I have never seen a male gos taking that much heads like my little brown northamerican parrot, who puts sometime some fear into the gosflyers here!

Claas :o))

[Parabuteo.de]

Sakeryzf,
In Desert hawking 3 by Harry McElroy, such a breeding program has been established - only the fastest harris were included into the breeding program. But it seems in this country that its just a matter of throwing any pair together - whether it was any good at hunting or not..........As long as their big :)

OF.

Thats the problem with some breeders, they use every bird they can get for their breeding project and not the really succesfull hunting birds they should.
Toby Bradshaw is on the right way, because he developed a pedigree database which can and should be used as a solid basement for selective breeding.

Claas :o))

[Joey]

well am a harris flyer but have u ever seen a gos take 6 brown hare in one day and shes just a european and a fella by me tried a harrisxgos it died at 3 days old

[Puzo]

For well over a thousand years falconers have been utilising birds of prey as hunting companions. Over the centuries they have achieved some truely remarkable results,a caste of peregrines at heron, with greyhounds, sallukis, even cheetahs at gazelle. All this was accomplished with the birds nature provided, all the improvements were made to the skills of the falconers.
<p>Todays falconers appear to seek to circumvent the time spent acquiring these skills, by attempting to improve,{for their purposes} the birds.Why would anyone want to cross a gos with a harris? Obviously to produce a goss which could be managed by someone with the skills to manage a harris. No offence intended to harris hawkers, a lot of whom fly their birds extremly well. But I think if someone who wants to fly a gos or any accipiter, it would be better, for all parties, if they sought to improve their skills rather than attempt to improve on nature.

[Parabuteo.de]

... if they sought to improve their skills rather than attempt to improve on nature.

you are right!

Claas :o))

[StormRider]

Very interesting thread Andy. I have to admit but I am a bit of a purest when it comes to breed but I have come to realise that hybrids do have their place in our traditions.
I may be wrong on this but was there not a Harris x Gos for sale in the IBR or UK Falcons recently. For the benefit of those who would wish to try the breeding side, a friend of mine has a really good female that he is willing to use within AI with gos semen. Any takers?
STU

[OutFlying]

It was a buzzard X gos on the ibr.

[StormRider]

Oh well.
STU

[Onyx25]

[QUOTE=Barbary Boy](what true hawk has brown eyes) what true falcon has yellow eyes?-greater kestrel!
sorry to be a tad pedantic but the eye colour is white not yellow around the edges nothing like an accipiter.I know this for certain as I have a pair!

[SycoPaff]

surelly the welfare of the bird is the most important thing, why breed birds just for the sake of it and end up with young with problems, anyone who cares about wildlife wouldnt consider this..
Too right! i dont agree with any hybridizing, but i canaccept falcons only coz my veiws wont change nothing!

but boredom hybridizing (as i call it)! any one who thinks a gos/harris is a good idea can p*ss off! pointless!

[SycoPaff]

i do agree in what u r saying mate, but the same was said in the early days like andy said about the hybrids,look at the gyr.sakers, peregrine sakers etc

their doing a good job, so u never know maybe it can be the accipter of the century :D tame and odediant and same time a ruthless killer like a gos

but hey were only wishful thinking
got to dissagree moses, sorry mate! we shouldn't screw with birds full stop! not right! and gos's can be very obediant and tame, anyone with a well trained gos will tell you that! you cant improve birds by messing around with there gene's! just my op!:)

[NGuruve]

i get your point but the other side of the story is peoplewill say th peregrie isthe perfect falcon y ruin its speed and tecinque but the hybrids have proved there worth

[GosFlyer]

I find this thread of great interest, as i have been breeding cage bird hybrids for 35 or more years, i find the golden rule of breeding birds is "there is no golden rule" to me keeping birds is a hobby and great pastime, i prefer to fly a gos because i enjoy the quality of flights i get especialy at feather, but because some of my pals fly harris,s i spend a lot of time flying them too. but if andy wants to try and cross a gos with a harris wether by AI or natural pairing let him try, just for the record the sire is the first mentioned when refering to a cross, gos x harris is what it say's a male gos with a female harris. this last breeding season i bred the firstever UK bred, male crossbill x bullfinch, you may think what the f--k for, i did it because it hadn't been done before, then sold it for four figures, this year i will try goldfinch x crossbill for the same reason, and the money. good luck to anyone who wants to breed a hybrid, if its successful as a hunter it will sell if it isnt ppl wont breed them only a trial with one would tell us if it was a successful hybrid, but dont forget the golden rule of breeding birds.:rolleyes:

[Puzo]

this last breeding season i bred the firstever UK bred, male crossbill x bullfinch, you may think what the f--k for, i did it because it hadn't been done before, then sold it for four figures, this year i will try goldfinch x crossbill for the same reason, and the money. good luck to anyone who wants to breed a hybrid, if its successful as a hunter it will sell if it isnt ppl wont breed them only a trial with one would tell us if it was a successful hybrid, but dont forget the golden rule of breeding birds.:rolleyes:

The gold rules??!

[SycoPaff]

I find this thread of great interest, as i have been breeding cage bird hybrids for 35 or more years, i find the golden rule of breeding birds is "there is no golden rule" to me keeping birds is a hobby and great pastime, i prefer to fly a gos because i enjoy the quality of flights i get especialy at feather, but because some of my pals fly harris,s i spend a lot of time flying them too. but if andy wants to try and cross a gos with a harris wether by AI or natural pairing let him try, just for the record the sire is the first mentioned when refering to a cross, gos x harris is what it say's a male gos with a female harris. this last breeding season i bred the firstever UK bred, male crossbill x bullfinch, you may think what the f--k for, i did it because it hadn't been done before, then sold it for four figures, this year i will try goldfinch x crossbill for the same reason, and the money. good luck to anyone who wants to breed a hybrid, if its successful as a hunter it will sell if it isnt ppl wont breed them only a trial with one would tell us if it was a successful hybrid, but dont forget the golden rule of breeding birds.:rolleyes:

right, dont mean to get narky! but birds shouldn't be livestock to be bred and sold and f**king hybridised for a higher price, or because your ****in bored! the only reason breeding in captivity should take place is for conservation and the fact take falconers cant take them out of the wild!

[MattSpar]

right, dont mean to get narky! but birds shouldn't be livestock to be bred and sold and f**king hybridised for a higher price, or because your ****in bored! the only reason breeding in captivity should take place is for conservation and the fact take falconers cant take them out of the wild!

Sorry, but I can't quite see that. Why on earth not?

[SycoPaff]

Sorry, but I can't quite see that. Why on earth not?
i may have missled you a bit in my rant! breeding to sell is not a problem! its hybridising because its never been done and out of boredom that is wrong! if hybridising has to take place, then it should be done for higher hunting performance! birds like goldie/steppes and gyr/merlins and harris/gos??? and harris/redtail? pointless! i think anyway!

[MattSpar]

i may have missled you a bit in my rant! breeding to sell is not a problem! its hybridising because its never been done and out of boredom that is wrong! if hybridising has to take place, then it should be done for higher hunting performance! birds like goldie/steppes and gyr/merlins and harris/gos??? and harris/redtail? pointless! i think anyway!

Mmmm, I see what you mean, but I was referring to the crossbill/bullfinch hybrid and the like. If GosFlyer wants to attempt what I know to be difficult (I've done something similar myself), and then sell the result for hard cash, I personally don't see a problem, that's all.

[SycoPaff]

Mmmm, I see what you mean, but I was referring to the crossbill/bullfinch hybrid and the like. If GosFlyer wants to attempt what I know to be difficult (I've done something similar myself), and then sell the result for hard cash, I personally don't see a problem, that's all.
sorry! sorry! wasn't clear again! my bad! just talkin bout bop! thoughs little birds, dont know much about them! i do know the people that do it can be just as dedicated as a falconer (if possible)! but i mean bop!:oops:

[MattSpar]

sorry! sorry! wasn't clear again! my bad! just talkin bout bop! thoughs little birds, dont know much about them! i do know the people that do it can be just as dedicated as a falconer (if possible)! but i mean bop!:oops:

Well, there again, there are people who breed hawks and sell them for hard cash. Take Terry at Kentish falconry. He's a businessman. He has a living to make. I still don't see anything wrong in it, or have I missed something again?

[SycoPaff]

Well, there again, there are people who breed hawks and sell them for hard cash. Take Terry at Kentish falconry. He's a businessman. He has a living to make. I still don't see anything wrong in it, or have I missed something again?
yes! i said breeding for money wasnt a problem!

[MattSpar]

yes! i said breeding for money wasnt a problem!

I'm sorry but your post said, "But birds shouldn't be livestock to be bred and sold and f**king hybridised for a higher price." Perhaps I misunderstand you.

[SycoPaff]

I'm sorry but your post said, "But birds shouldn't be livestock to be bred and sold and f**king hybridised for a higher price." Perhaps I misunderstand you.
if you look at my 09:27pm post!

[MattSpar]

if you look at my 09:27pm post!

Aha, make allowances for an old man!

[SycoPaff]

Aha, make allowances for an old man!
already made!lol

[Hacker]

Who`s to say that the pure species that we think of today are not just natures hybrids to suit the differing enviroments over the many milleniums?
Remember Darwin?

[MattSpar]

Who`s to say that the pure species that we think of today are not just natures hybrids to suit the differing enviroments over the many milleniums?
Remember Darwin?

Remember him? I knew his father.

[SycoPaff]

Who`s to say that the pure species that we think of today are not just natures hybrids to suit the differing enviroments over the many milleniums?
Remember Darwin?
thats exactly why shouldn't play god and make pointless hybrids! natures hybrids are made through neccessity to survive! not money! or they look pretty!

[MattSpar]

thats exactly why shouldn't play god and make pointless hybrids! natures hybrids are made through neccessity to survive! not money! or they look pretty!

I hope the Almighty won't mind me taking His name in vain, but I think mankind has rather put Him out of business.

[GosFlyer]

i may have missled you a bit in my rant! breeding to sell is not a problem! its hybridising because its never been done and out of boredom that is wrong! if hybridising has to take place, then it should be done for higher hunting performance! birds like goldie/steppes and gyr/merlins and harris/gos??? and harris/redtail? pointless! i think anyway!


my crossbill x bullfinch could hunt and kill mealworms quicker than a straight bullfinch. so is that ok now. as for bored i'm too busy breeding birds to be bored. it takes a lot of time and dedication to breed the stuff i keep, but as long as the hybrids apear to be better mealworm hunters i'm glad you agree its ok to breed them.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[SycoPaff]

my crossbill x bullfinch could hunt and kill mealworms quicker than a straight bullfinch. so is that ok now. as for bored i'm too busy breeding birds to be bored. it takes a lot of time and dedication to breed the stuff i keep, but as long as the hybrids apear to be better mealworm hunters i'm glad you agree its ok to breed them.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
woh woh woh! sorry! i was trying to specify towards bop! i get very inaccurate when i rant! my bad! i apologies!

[GosFlyer]

woh woh woh! sorry! i was trying to specify towards bop! i get very inaccurate when i rant! my bad! i apologies!


accepted:rolleyes:

[Puzo]

my crossbill x bullfinch could hunt and kill mealworms quicker than a straight bullfinch. so is that ok now. as for bored i'm too busy breeding birds to be bored. it takes a lot of time and dedication to breed the stuff i keep, but as long as the hybrids apear to be better mealworm hunters i'm glad you agree its ok to breed them.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Not for the mealworms. There's a world of diference between natural selection, which evolves in symbiosis with nature, & throwing two species together in the hope of making a killing machine & a killing. I don't think Darwin can be used as a justification.

[GosFlyer]

Not for the mealworms. There's a world of diference between natural selection, which evolves in symbiosis with nature, & throwing two species together in the hope of making a killing machine & a killing. I don't think Darwin can be used as a justification.


have i seen you on hartford bridge taking train numbers. its a challenging hobby that, i may get into it myself one day when ive given up on the easy stuff.:rolleyes:

[Hacker]

What is natural selection if it is not to do something well.?
If nature needs a change it just gets on and does it, it does not need a debate!!
The environement will dictate!

[Puzo]

have i seen you on hartford bridge taking train numbers. its a challenging hobby that, i may get into it myself one day when ive given up on the easy stuff.:rolleyes:

No I don't think so! Why would you want to cross a bullfinch x crossbill. It would end up with a great percentage of beak deformity. Why anyone would pay 4 figures for it, apart from P. T. Barnum, beggars belief. Some people will do anything for a buck!

[Goshawks00]

Hi Guys , waded through a ot of posts to get here, and while I am all for a row once in a while, I'll contain myself as I'm the new kid on the block here, though long in the tooth when falconry/breeding is involved.. Several years ago I was able to produce fertile gos/harris eggs , and had one hatch and die within 2 hours. Not sure why it died and eventually I gave up on the idea after Harry Buttersworth wrote this:

<<<I'll confess to having dreams about breeding a superior HH down the
line. But gawd would it be complex especially with a bird like the
HH.......lets start of simply along the road of breeding a superior HH by
concentrating on just one trait............. acceleration, over say, the
first
200 yards.

To make a HH faster over this distance we would have to change the muscle
structure of its pectorals and other flight muscles. Giving it a higher
ratio
of white muscle cells to red (anaerobic to aerobic muscle respiration).
Change
the wing shape........ shorter and deeper wings are more efficient for
acceleration. Change the flight feathers......... HH flight feathers are too
soft, lets stiffen them up....... altering their profile will also improve
efficiency. To cope with the extra energy required for this extra speed we
will
have to tweak the digestive system........ lets go for a shorter gut to save
space and weight, (of course this will mean having to feed higher quality
food
and more often). Also, what are we going to do with the extra heat generated
by
the production of this extra energy? We could go for larger air sacs for
better
heat dissipation but this would increase size and in turn decrease
efficiency
so lets go instead for only flying the bird in colder average temperatures
and
get around the overheating problem that way. What about its brain? It is
going
to need extra processing capabilities for the quicker and more complex
decision
making brought about by this extra speed, again, making it bigger makes it
less
flight efficient so instead lets use a bit of the brain that it uses for
other
things.......... it only ends up a little dumber.

After we have bred all the above and more characteristics into our "super"
HH
what will our great, great, great, great, great, falconer grandchildren get
for
the effort?............ a goshawk?>>>

From a technical point I think it can be done, but for me I've given up on the idea. That said I am still enthralled with trying to breed your Euro spar with our Sharpshinned hawk. I had a pair together two years ago the female( sharpie) laid 6 eggs but the male( spar) was only a yearling and though they copoulated the eggs were all infertile. Then during the winter the female broke her neck in a hunting accident and that was that. I plan on taking another eyas female sharpie this year with the intent on trying again in a couple of years.
Why you might ask?...... I guess because I love both of these breeds and am always curious to see what is around the next bend..
Just my .02
Barry

[Ben C]

What is natural selection if it is not to do something well.?
If nature needs a change it just gets on and does it, it does not need a debate!!
The environement will dictate!


You have answered your own question...if nature intended it...it would have already happened.

Imagine though getting a dull looking, aggressive and tempremental hawk, that is slow, doesn't like dogs, makes a noise and can only really be flown at rabbits????

****** that.......:rolleyes: :roll: :lol:

[Ben C]

Sorry.......forgot to add...absolutley belting post goshawks00...:supz:

[Gwaihir]

<<<I'll confess to having dreams about breeding a superior HH down the
line. But gawd would it be complex especially with a bird like the
HH.......lets start of simply along the road of breeding a superior HH by
concentrating on just one trait............. acceleration, over say, the
first
200 yards.

To make a HH faster over this distance we would have to change the muscle
structure of its pectorals and other flight muscles. Giving it a higher
ratio
of white muscle cells to red (anaerobic to aerobic muscle respiration).
Change
the wing shape........ shorter and deeper wings are more efficient for
acceleration. Change the flight feathers......... HH flight feathers are too
soft, lets stiffen them up....... altering their profile will also improve
efficiency. To cope with the extra energy required for this extra speed we
will
have to tweak the digestive system........ lets go for a shorter gut to save
space and weight, (of course this will mean having to feed higher quality
food
and more often). Also, what are we going to do with the extra heat generated
by
the production of this extra energy? We could go for larger air sacs for
better
heat dissipation but this would increase size and in turn decrease
efficiency
so lets go instead for only flying the bird in colder average temperatures
and
get around the overheating problem that way. What about its brain? It is
going
to need extra processing capabilities for the quicker and more complex
decision
making brought about by this extra speed, again, making it bigger makes it
less
flight efficient so instead lets use a bit of the brain that it uses for
other
things.......... it only ends up a little dumber.

After we have bred all the above and more characteristics into our "super"
HH
what will our great, great, great, great, great, falconer grandchildren get
for
the effort?............ a goshawk?>>>



Mustard mate:D

John M

[Goshawks00]

Yes then again if nature intended it we would all still be rubbing sticks and trying to make fire!! Man's quest for or need to try and improve something has led to the prostitution of nature for our own gain , why stop at goshawks/harris hawks?

This message is brought to you by some else's dream, enjoy it!!!
Barry

[Onyx25]

You have answered your own question...if nature intended it...it would have already happened.

Imagine though getting a dull looking, aggressive and tempremental hawk, that is slow, doesn't like dogs, makes a noise and can only really be flown at rabbits????

****** that.......:rolleyes: :roll: :lol:
Take out the aggresive and temperemental bit what do you get? Answer The harris' hawk!!!

[Onyx25]

Take out the aggresive and temperemental bit what do you get? Answer The harris' hawk!!!
Only joking quite like harris' but couldn't help myself!!!

[Ben C]

Yes then again if nature intended it we would all still be rubbing sticks and trying to make fire!! Man's quest for or need to try and improve something has led to the prostitution of nature for our own gain , why stop at goshawks/harris hawks?

This message is brought to you by some else's dream, enjoy it!!!
Barry

And that is the reason why the world is over populated, dying and full of rubbish. I quite like the idea of rubbing sticks.....seems about the right amount of effort for the right amount of reward.

However....and this is the curse of life itself.......I would fly a hybrid without any worries.........I know, go figure????????


Onyx.....................BANG ON......and I fly a HH.....PMSL........:supz: :supz:

[Hacker]

You have answered your own question...if nature intended it...it would have already happened.

Imagine though getting a dull looking, aggressive and tempremental hawk, that is slow, doesn't like dogs, makes a noise and can only really be flown at rabbits????

****** that.......:rolleyes: :roll: :lol:
What i said is that if the environment changes then nature will change the bird to suit it even if it means hybridising, just about everything started out as something else.

[Ben C]

What i said is that if the environment changes then nature will change the bird to suit it even if it means hybridising, just about everything started out as something else.


Of course...but human interference is not in any way comparable to nature........in fact it is pure arrogance to think we live outside nature and can meddle without any come back what so ever.

Nature does not hybridise anything....it creates a whole new genus. You are mis-reading Darwinian theory!

Oops there I go again...sounding like a total t w a t ......PMSL....:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Anyway you can't improve on a HH in my opinion....but then again I am biased.................LOL

[Hacker]

Of course...but human interference is not in any way comparable to nature........in fact it is pure arrogance to think we live outside nature and can meddle without any come back what so ever.

Nature does not hybridise anything....it creates a whole new genus. You are mis-reading Darwinian theory!

Oops there I go again...sounding like a total t w a t ......PMSL....:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Can`t argue with that but to create another genus you have to have the material in which to create it from!

[Ben C]

Absolutely Hacker.....

But a hybrid cannot have offspring......a hybrid is by definition a freak of nature.......see nature is VERY good!!! Stops a lion having a shag with an antelope and having a veggie hunter......chaos would reign...:supz:

To circumvent this a new sub-species is created and therefore nature waddles on her merry way!!!

[Whistler6752]

Is it natural to keep and hunt a bop the way we do? If so, it must be natural to build cars and power stations and mess about with nature. Either we are part of this world or we are not!

[Ben C]

NO..it is not 'natural' for us to hunt birds of prey....in as much as our SURVIVAL does not depend on it. Unless of course we choose to eat only the meat we catch.

However this thread is about crossing a Gos with a Harris: Which has no point at all, just stupid meddling nonsense..............I can p i s s off the top of a multi story carpark onto a pensioner, doesn't mean it is good for me or the pensioner......or for that matter a good way to waste my time! LOL

[Whistler6752]

Flying a bop has no point at all, if you have no interest in it!

[Ben C]

So you have no interest in it then? I am confused by your post.

[Whistler6752]

Sorry,just trying to say,if you have no interest in cross breeding then it would seem pointless.

[Ben C]

True:

But the point of cross breeding is to serve a purpose.......what on earth can be refined by crossing a Gos with a Harris??? NOWT!!! :supz: :supz:

I can understand it with a falcon but with a hawk flown from the fist then not at all. A Gos is already PERFECT.

Or for that matter a broadwing soaring......why would you want a speed merchant for that sort of flying????

A Gos hunting from tree to tree??? Not on your nelly.......

Naahh it seems a bit too much like frivolity....the mark of a man is retraint in the face of abundance.................can this be said of the person who wants to match a gos with a Harris??? I think not!

[Puzo]

Is it natural to keep and hunt a bop the way we do? If so, it must be natural to build cars and power stations and mess about with nature. Either we are part of this world or we are not!
There are instances of baboons keeping, or at least using wild dogs, as guards. The baboons post the dogs to keep watch outside their sleeping caves. There are a multitude of examples of inter-species symbiotic behaviour. Ants farming aphids, Ox peckers, cleaner wrasses,ant birds, remoras, So keeping birds as hunting companions could be described as natural. <p> Trying to create life as just another commodity can't, in my opinion, be construed as natural, in fact it's the antithesis of natural. Natural selection doesn't evolve in isolation, but in response to & in line with various balanced criteria. Ie as the giraffe evolves a longer neck to reach higher leaves, the tree evolves thorns in response, or becomes extinct. We've evolved the knowledge necessary to produce hybrids & "mess around with nature". Unfortunately the wisdom not to comes too late.

[Whistler6752]

Just standing up for his right to have a go.Ive been flying about 20yrs and believe it or not my 1st bird was a gos! I have lots of happy memories but now, at my age,on the land I fly, a harris (or two) suits me just fine.If he wants to try something different good luck to him.

[Ben C]

Whistler....I am not disagreeing too much with you...and on the scale of things it is not going to blow the world apart...:supz: :heart: BUT in my opinion (which is nowt really) why mess around with perfection???

[Whistler6752]

Ben c, He must feel the need,I don't see any danger unless the hybrids were fertile, which is not very likely! If they were,that would pose a real threat to both the gos and the harris!That I would be against.

[Ben C]

It is totally fair that he has the RIGHT to breed them and good luck and all that etc etc etc.........

But for what purpose...........answer me that mate :rolleyes: :cool: :cool: :cool:

[Whistler6752]

Beats me mate, ask him!:-) regards Mike.

[Dave G]

what if you got a goss to raise a harris as from a chick then fly them together ,then the goss mite learn some thing lol over to you blackbird ;)

[Ben C]

So Andy......why would you want too???????:supz: :supz: :supz: :supz:

[Yarak1]

Yes I know BB and belive me I certainly relise how fragile the sport is!! But the hybrids are actually needed, that was not the intention when they where first tryed, but now they are very importent, and antis will find any excuse to hate the sport; hybrids, thethered birds, un native birds, hacking, hunting, you name it, they will find something to go down on us for. But if we try to change and adapt our sport to what we think will be accepteble for them, then they have already won.
no offence again

How do you mean very important? To who? And what are they needed for?

[Puzo]

How do you mean very important? To who? And what are they needed for?
The only reason I can think of is £££. They can't be indispensable for falconry, it existed for 2 millenia without them. They've only been available for twenty years. I've never flown a hybrid. Well apart from a 1/8 barbary peregrine & they're not really hybridised, They weren't available when I started & I'm too set in my ways now. But can a hybrid do anything a pure peregrine can't? Do we have any game that requires a huge gyr cross? People worry about the anti's bringing about legislation to end falconry. They've tried for years without success. But if these hybrids have a detrimental effect on wild raptors then there will be an outcry from normal people, to rival that in the sixties in response to the threat from organochloride weedkillers. That could well put the nails in the coffin. Ive heard the US are bringing in legislation requiring compulsory sterilisation for all hybrids. So someone must see a threat somewhere!

[Graham Stuart]

I can p i s s off the top of a multi story carpark onto a pensioner! LOL

But now i know why all pensioners smell off P I S S :yawinkle:

[Yarak1]

The only reason I can think of is £££. They can't be indispensable for falconry, it existed for 2 millenia without them. They've only been available for twenty years. I've never flown a hybrid. Well apart from a 1/8 barbary peregrine & they're not really hybridised, They weren't available when I started & I'm too set in my ways now. But can a hybrid do anything a pure peregrine can't? Do we have any game that requires a huge gyr cross? People worry about the anti's bringing about legislation to end falconry. They've tried for years without success. But if these hybrids have a detrimental effect on wild raptors then there will be an outcry from normal people, to rival that in the sixties in response to the threat from organochloride weedkillers. That could well put the nails in the coffin. Ive heard the US are bringing in legislation requiring compulsory sterilisation for all hybrids. So someone must see a threat somewhere!

Puzo, I agree 100% what can hybrids do that Pure birds can't!! There is no game in this country that can't be taken by a pere falcon...........

[UKJay74]

puzo for a few of us lacking in knowledge what does this statement mean I've never flown a hybrid. Well apart from a 1/8 barbary peregrine & they're not really hybridised
do they naturaly breed in the wild or is it a common cross breed??

also what other falcons if they do cross breed naturally?? that you now of i have read that gyrs and sakers do but not many otheres gyr/sakers i suppose is down to locality

[Puzo]

Meaning, & I'm probably wrong on this as Ive never bred birds & know very little about it, They are basicaly of the same taxonomic group as opposed to hybridisation between gyr x peregrine Or saker x peregrine which don't occur naturaly & are very likely to be infertile.

[Tim Laycock]

That is my understanding also

[PeelsBells]

Very interesting thread Andy. I have to admit but I am a bit of a purest when it comes to breed but I have come to realise that hybrids do have their place in our traditions.
I may be wrong on this but was there not a Harris x Gos for sale in the IBR or UK Falcons recently. For the benefit of those who would wish to try the breeding side, a friend of mine has a really good female that he is willing to use within AI with gos semen. Any takers?
STU

Just reading through the thread again did you get any takers this season?