falconry licence

[Pitbull]

We all know that the amout of people taking up falconry is increasing. Look at the amount of newbies that have joined just recently, (including myself ). Should there be a similar apprenticeship as over the pond. I have mixed views as i dont know exactly how it works in America. I know Falconry Centres do managment courses but not everyone goes to them.
What are your views. I am intrested to hear what others have to say.

[Flying High]

i have been doing falconry professionally now for a few years and i strongly believe that there should be some sort of license. I believe that everyone should have to sit sometime or have to do some sort of apprenticeship.
I think that if falconry is going to survive for many years to come some sort of license should be brought in. not just for the new up a coming falconer but for falconry company's as well. because I have work with some people that have centers and don't even know how to train birds

[Pitbull]

i did a gcse course on animal care before i could go into dog training could this be some kind of idea.

[Peregrine960]

Falconry is the most highly regulated field sport in the U.S. A comprehensive set of federal and state falconry regulations have been enacted for the protection of the raptors. To practice falconry in Michigan, an individual must hold a federal and a Michigan falconry permit. In addition, a falconer must possess the hunting license appropriate for the game being hunted and observe identical or similar hunting seasons and bag limits that apply to other hunters.



There are three classes of falconry permits, apprentice, general and master. To become an apprentice falconer, an individual must:
Be at least 14 years of age
Pass a written exam administered by the DNR
Obtain the sponsorship of a general or master falconer
Pass a facility and equipment inspection by a DNR conservation officer

An apprentice falconer may advance to the general class after practicing under a sponsor for two years and may achieve master class after practicing at the general level for 5 years.

Regulations limit the number of raptors that a falconer may possess. An apprentice may have only one bird, a general may have two, and a master falconer may have three.

[Pitbull]

Falconry is the most highly regulated field sport in the U.S. A comprehensive set of federal and state falconry regulations have been enacted for the protection of the raptors. To practice falconry in Michigan, an individual must hold a federal and a Michigan falconry permit. In addition, a falconer must possess the hunting license appropriate for the game being hunted and observe identical or similar hunting seasons and bag limits that apply to other hunters.


How do I get a falconry permit?
There are three classes of falconry permits, apprentice, general and master. To become an apprentice falconer, an individual must:
Be at least 14 years of age
Pass a written exam administered by the DNR
Obtain the sponsorship of a general or master falconer
Pass a facility and equipment inspection by a DNR conservation officer


How long is the apprenticeship?
An apprentice falconer may advance to the general class after practicing under a sponsor for two years and may achieve master class after practicing at the general level for 5 years.

How many raptors can a falconer have?
Regulations limit the number of raptors that a falconer may possess. An apprentice may have only one bird, a general may have two, and a master falconer may have three.

what would you have then your system or the british

[ChakChek]

i think there should be some kind of license and also taking a course or exam type thing should be neccesary just to stop anybody getting their dirty paws on a bird only to get bored or ignore it

[Peregrine960]

federal and state falconry regulations have been enacted for the protection of the raptors
with that said i think people who see us with bop on our fist think its cool and want one with out really realizing the dedication knowledge and commitment needed to properly care for and train a falconry bird.falconry birds are made not born.when they do realize whats invoved probably 90 some% never follow through which for the birds sake is a good thing in my humble opinion

[Pitbull]

I have said this before but obtaining a BOP in britain is far to easy.

[ChakChek]

id have to agree there

being new to this, well iv ben into falconry since i was young but iv never been in the position to get my own bird until recently, iv been researchingi t a hell of a lot and i was pretty amazed at how easy it actaully is to find birds. the one the that i was suprised at aswell was how cheap they were. i was expecting the prices to be higher on the whole

[Pitbull]

go and buy a Pedigree dog £500
go and buy a BOP £300
and yes we have all seen them less

[Talon]

ive been in to falconry for 20 odd years now.
and seen a massive increase of ppl.
starting it .mostly as a passing fads.due to seeing some sort of display or another.
usaly the poor old hh cops for it.being handed down from one owner to the other.there should be some sort of licenceing.or writen test like our
american friends have. may be a set time and course thay have to compleat.
there are too many so called falconry centers.and publice displays wich ppl can watch and just decide on a wim.that having a bird is for them.
allso if they have the money they can go out and buy a eagle just like that.

[Wilded]

There is no reason to have neither the restrictions nor the expensive permits required in the USA. The number of falconers in the USA has no effect upon raptor populations unless it is to insure the survival of some passage birds. A very high percentage of first year birds perish in the wild while an extremely high percentage of passage falconer birds not only survive but are later released back into the breeding pool. We would do better to work on eliminating the type electric lines that fry hundreds of birds every year and stop the poisoning of rodents and bugs which in turn are eaten by raptors if we are truly concerned about the birds welfare. JMHO

[JFSeaman]

Things to remember about US apprentice scheme versus any UK license.

An American falconer is allowed to trap wild birds! This is huge compared to the UK.

American falconers give up the right of privacy. If you are a licensed falconer in the US a state or federal officer can show up to your house 24/7 (or place where your birds live) and you are required to produce all paper work associated with the bird(s) and to allow inspection of the birds housing (but not your house unless the bird lives in it).

So be careful what you wish for.

Do I think the UK should have something, yes. What? Don't know.

If something formal could be implemented who would administer it? The Hawk Board? I'd keep the government out if it if I my way.

[JFSeaman]

There is no reason to have neither the restrictions nor the expensive permits required in the USA. The number of falconers in the USA has no effect upon raptor populations unless it is to insure the survival of some passage birds. A very high percentage of first year birds perish in the wild while an extremely high percentage of passage falconer birds not only survive but are later released back into the breeding pool. We would do better to work on eliminating the type electric lines that fry hundreds of birds every year and stop the poisoning of rodents and bugs which in turn are eaten by raptors if we are truly concerned about the birds welfare. JMHO

Amen brother.

The laws changing and changes are in review. Get your comments in. Get NAFA to loosen it up, they wrote the law.

[GM090158]

I believe that we should have something in in the UK. I have severe reservations about the government being involved.
Then you have the situation that who would decide in the first instance who is competent and who is not. If it was only club members a substancial number of very good falconers would be immediately excluded!
I am led to believe that you can only have a vote on the Hawk Board if you are the owner of a registerable species, if this is true then how could they (if they became the enforcing body) judge the exceptionally large majority of falconers who are flying the non registerable species. Loads of questions but unfortunately no answers!:confused:

[FlameHairedFalconer]

I genuinely believe falconers should be licenced and not the hawks. What this should mean is that you need to pass some sort of course/exam and have to pay for a licence, whatever type or species you fly. Basically the more hoops you have to jump through the more the '5 minuters' will be put off.

However I have heard of the rather draconian licencing system in the US and would not advocate a similar system here. My main concern is that the only bodies that could possibly run any sort of licencing would be Local Authorities and then we would be at the mercy of the 'tree hugger' and 'fluffy bunny' brigade that these venerable institutions attract....

FHF

[Jazz1]

Yes there should be something in place in the uk but what ?? An exam and attend your local Falconry centre(A GOOD ONE)for so long.
It's wrong that anybody can just go out and get these beautiful bird's i bet there is alot end up in the wrong hand's.

[ChrisRobbo]

I feel that there have already been many good points raised on the topic so far. But i would have to go with the birds welfare being first and so would like have new owners take a comprehensive test on bird welfare and fieldcraft. I would not want to see many good falconeers being discorraged from joing the sport or to even stop it growing but i want to see it progressing in the right manner. I currently have a FHH from one of these owners i aqcuired only a few weeks ago. I think this situation could have been avoided by some sort of cooldown period after a test was taken like a month (or more) just to let ones priorities be realised. As the most trouble arrises from an impulse purchase of a BOP.

[Graham Stuart]

Its just the same as keeping a dog or reptiles or other animals, if you dont have some knowledge and take good care of the animal then it will suffer, i remember there used to be a dog licence but it was never enforced, and who would make sure everyone with a bop held a licence, i personally know of people with birds who keep them in unsuitablly sized averies(like small boxes) the government would welcome it as it would cost us money and line their already bulging pockets some more...........:wink:

[JFSeaman]

I believe that we should have something in in the UK. I have severe reservations about the government being involved.
Then you have the situation that who would decide in the first instance who is competent and who is not. If it was only club members a substancial number of very good falconers would be immediately excluded!
I am led to believe that you can only have a vote on the Hawk Board if you are the owner of a registerable species, if this is true then how could they (if they became the enforcing body) judge the exceptionally large majority of falconers who are flying the non registerable species. Loads of questions but unfortunately no answers!:confused:

It's my understanding that the Hawk Board is supported by contributions from the clubs, the clubs get a deligate to the board and that there is no direct falconer to hawk board interaction at this time.

I'm not a UK citizen, I live here for work (might be able to have dual citizenship, dad was a brit), so everything I say about a license scheme is a suggestion for you who can act to chew on and try to get something done.

Keep the government out of it is my suggestion except for what it takes to get The Hawk Board approved as the overseer of the license scheme, provide oversite (make sure The Hawk Board is doing their job) and to back The Hawk Board when there is a violation that should have legal processes.

I don't think the government should provide The Hawk Board with any money except that if there is a legal process and a penalty, the money should go to The Hawk Board to support enforcement. But you all need to think about how you would fund a license scheme.

Funding for a license scheme will have to cover a huge number of projects and activitities depending on what you all decide is best. Examples: certification scheme for falconry course providers, time, place and scheme for a written and/or oral test of falconers compotence, inspection of housing facilitiles.

So here is my suggested list of things that should be part of the license scheme:

Four parts, existing falconers, buying and selling birds and serivces, licensing falconers and the apprentice scheme.

Existing falconers:
5 year phase in plan so that existing falconers can keep flying and get a 'license' as time permits. If they can't get a license in 5 years should they have birds? Existing falconers should not be able to buy new birds until they pass the written/oral examination and get an inspection (see buying and selling).

Buying and selling birds and serivces:
A scheme for breeders and importers to require that a purchaser has a license. IE as of a cirtain date, if you sell or transfer a bird to an unlicensed falconer the breeder/transfereee should encure a penalty, giving a bird for free is considered same as selling for this discussion.

Certification for falconry course providers, renewed every other year.

Licensing Falconers:
Clubs to be certified to administer the test and inspect BOP housing. CLUB membership NOT required. Any member of the public to be able to take test and get an inspection. Fees payable to club for administration costs with part going to The Hawk Board for administration costs.

Written and/or oral test. Emphasize housing and husbandry. Do not test on training the birds as there are so many ways to do things right (see apprenticeship).

Inspection of the birds housing. Every other year. By local CLUB no requirment to be a member of the club. Just call, make an appointment and get signed off. Prefer no fee for renewal inspection. If inappropriate housing suspected then goes to review of panel of three inspectors, one each from three different clubs (to stop personal squabbles).

No limits on the number or types of birds. This is an animal wellfare issue not a falconry issue.

Apprentice Scheme:
No requirement to take a course. Suggested but not required.

Clubs to be able to provide couses.

Clubs to interview and approve 'sponsor' falconers. Club membership not required to be a 'sponsor' falconer.

Clubs to arrange meetings between 'sponsor' falconers and apprentice falconers. Club membership not required.

Must have passed the test and gotten an inspection to get a bird (see buying and selling).

A suggestion that the apprentice have one bird for the first season.

-----------------------

What I like about my suggestions, it's non-intrusive, keeps the government out, uses peer pressure/public pressure for compiance, only one real enforcement point at the sale/transfer of a bird.

You experienced falconers need to be willing to take the test, get an inspection AND sponsor apprentices for it to work. I know it's a PIA but if you won't do it, it won't get done. Get out there and join or participate in club activities to move this forward.

Jim Chick, chairman of the Hawk Board is going to be at the next BHA meeting and I'd much rather see a discussion about licensing than about Fox Hunting with BOP or Avian Influenza.

Just my 2p worth.

[Graham Stuart]

2p worth jf thats at least 2 quids worth mate...well said though:wink:

[NGuruve]

i think its a gd thing in africa they grade bird and thn you have to earn that grade to fly a bird ie. a eagle or peregrine is grade a so will take a long time till you can fly one of these a black spar is grade b along with others and all smaller easier birds are grade c which all falconers start at

wat do you think of this system

[Afshimo]

Great post! Good idea's!

If you read the falconer's magazine, there was an artical about the NVQ status course, something that looks quite good. I havn't been told much yet, I wil speak to Terry to find out what is going on, how its used etc, so if anyone has Q's post or PM and I'll ask and get back to you.

I know it includes the basics, it's like a course where you are tought stuff, like casting a bird and different equipment, telemetry and housing. There's a lot more that I can't remember! I'll get more info tonight I promise!

Hannah

[Achilles]

I am in total agreement that there should be some form of regulation here in the UK. However, I cannot see how this could be done whilst keeping the government out of the loop. The only way that inspections could be enforced is for Parliament to pass legislation giving the inspecting authority certain powers. Without these powers an owner could tell anyone arriving on his doorstep to carry out an inspection to ****** off and refuse them access to the birds. The cost of setting up any scheme that is capable of working is going to be high and I believe only achievable with government intervention.

I am also surprised at the number of BOPs held in captivity by non falconers ie stuck in a cage and never flown. I am convinced that for inspections to be carried out satisfactorily it would require a number of inspectors employed full time in each county.

It would be nice to keep the governmet out of it but I just don't believe that it is possible.

[Afshimo]

If they do grading, I think it should be like:

small falcons
Large falcons
Hawks
Eagles
Vultures
Buzzards (including Harris hawks)

Birds like harris hawks, red tailed buzzards and common buzzards should be starter birds and for falcons the Lanner and Saker.

Small falcons and Hawks should be the next lvl up, being different to train, not too hard but need new tecniques learnt.

Eagles and Vultures should be left to the experianced.

Just basic idea's lol.

Owl's should be on their own, only being allowed to start with Bengal, GHO or european and have previouse experiance to take on a barn owl as they are smaller. They need their own course so you learn how to look after them.

I'll post again tonight.

[NGuruve]

yes i agreethe zimbabwe system is more complicated than i described and they only allow native bird to be flown in the country which is only ok off the birds are there but not abad idea though

[Graham Stuart]

in theory it is a good idea but passing a test then putting it into practice is another thing, look at the number of folk who pass a driving test then go out and drive like total w**kers,:wink: sadly mostly blokes, most people who keep bop know how they should be kept but how many actually do as they should..

[Ben C]

Plans are being drawn up between LANTRA and the Proffessional Falconers Association. Ask Varmint.

[JFSeaman]

The only government involvement would e to give the 'authority' (Hawk Board?) teeth and backing for 'illegal' activities.

Yes I know there are lots of open issues. We can't change the world in a day. If the UK were to do what the US did in 1960's, that is go from all BOP are vermin to no one is allowed to touch so much as a feather from a road kill BOP, all overnight, there should be rioting falconers and BOP keepers at Westminster.

If you start soft and make it so that knowledge+experience brings support+privilege (like being a sponsor), later you can add things that are hard, like very experienced and prooven falconers could be issued a DEFRA license to take passage spars in areas were they are over populated.

I believe that any BOP not flow free is an abomination. But if we try to stop such practices at the same time as starting a license scheme IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

Small steps. Voluntary, peer pressure.

Try this on the owl keeper who doesn't fly his bird: Oh you have an owl, do you fly him free (NO), do you have a license, it doesn't cost much and you learn so much in the process. You'll appreciate your bird even more.

[Boobook]

Not only is this a good idea but I think it is becoming more and more essential as the privately held BOP population goes up.

It would get my vote!

[IAmTheWeasel]

I genuinely believe falconers should be licenced and not the hawks. What this should mean is that you need to pass some sort of course/exam and have to pay for a licence, whatever type or species you fly. Basically the more hoops you have to jump through the more the '5 minuters' will be put off.

However I have heard of the rather draconian licencing system in the US and would not advocate a similar system here. My main concern is that the only bodies that could possibly run any sort of licencing would be Local Authorities and then we would be at the mercy of the 'tree hugger' and 'fluffy bunny' brigade that these venerable institutions attract....

FHF
FHF, You are correct in that one of the reasons it is so difficult to get a falconry permit in the US is to discourage the Wannabee's, We don't like doing it, but it's better that having the half hearted getting birds. Not saying that this system is fool proof as I have seen and heard of a few rotten falconers that have slipped through the cracks. I kind of like the fact that it is difficult to get into as it upholds the standards a bit more than if "Joe Blow" down the street has 15 BOP in his backyard and prances around like a fairy showing them off all day. This only serves to cast a shadow on the serious falconers that actually respect the sport when some ****** like this is seen by the public.

[Hells99]

I think a course is a good idea for people wanting to own a BOP.

I had a half day falconry experience at Eagle Heights in Kent and had always loved raptors, it decided me that I may like to have my own bird.

I bought books, looked on the internet and eventually ended up doing voluntary work at a Raptor Rescue Centre to get some real experience.

After a few months I decided that I would have neither the time to devote to the bird to keep it happy and in tip top condition nor suitable flying ground near by.

I'm happy now to just work with them on a voluntary basis and carry on learning more about them - I see too many birds that have been handed over because people are bored with them or who have no idea how to train them. The birds sometimes end up with serious people problems through mismanagement and although most of them eventually come round with a lot of hard work from the owners and end up being successful hunting or display birds, some of them never do come round and all we can do is freeloft them in big aviaries with others of their kind.

It was and is a very useful experience for me because it dissuaded me from getting my own BOP and ruining the poor bird's life.

I may be allowed to adopt and keep a couple of disabled BOP's and keep them at my home in an approved aviary once I have gained a lot more experience.

Sorry for the essay! :roll:

[Tanith]

Although no system is perfect I fully endorse the system that operates here in the United States and if the UK were to adopt a similar scheme, not only would It weed out the wannabees It would give the British falconer more credibility. A throwaway comment by Alexes sponsor that we are a nation of petkeepers was quite hurtful but that was his perception of us .

One thing I hadn't realised out here was It doesn't stop with getting a licence. The falconer has to submit a yearly report to the DEC (falconry Division) on what kills have been obtained and the licence can be withdrawn at any time. So standards are maintained at all times.

I feel a sense a of achievment already and I have only come a small step. Obviously my next goal is to work with a trapped redtail which I know will be awesome and keep on learning until I can obtain my master falconer status.

Having the different tiers in place allows ambition in the sport and a sense of achievment that is recognised by the wider community.

[Pogue Mahone]

i dont think a test for a licence will make much difference ,people pass a driving test but i dosent mean they can drive well or ever will ,boy racers tear up and down my estate without any regard for others ,so if a person gets a licence they might still be irrisponsible with a bird,and the ones that dont pass any test will do it illeagly anway

[FlameHairedFalconer]

I kind of like the fact that it is difficult to get into as it upholds the standards a bit more than if "Joe Blow" down the street has 15 BOP in his backyard and prances around like a fairy showing them off all day. This only serves to cast a shadow on the serious falconers that actually respect the sport when some ****** like this is seen by the public.

Weasel - the thought of people like that being put of keeping hawks is truly a wonderful one. I wish, I wish!

I am aware that the occasional person slips through, and I have also heard of good falconers being caught out by the system too. I guess that this is the bad side as you will always tend to hear of the bad experiences rather than the good.

FHF

[OutFlying]

i dont think a test for a licence will make much difference ,people pass a driving test but i dosent mean they can drive well or ever will ,boy racers tear up and down my estate without any regard for others ,so if a person gets a licence they might still be irrisponsible with a bird,and the ones that dont pass any test will do it illeagly anway

I made the exact same point when this subject was raised the other month.

The USA has a completely different system of hunting laws etc for all field sports and people to police them.

The UK has some of the tightest Animal welfare laws in the world - so what is it that your protecting with the falconry licence, it isn't the bird welfare as it is already covered.

Maybe you don't like idiots taking up the sport without a level of knowledge, but as long as the hawk is in good health - what laws are they breaking ? answer none.

[Kevin Massey]

jim ...

i personly think that no one in the uk should be able to just go out and by a b-o-p...without showing they are capable of handling and looking after them.

mind you... my opinion aint just about b-o-p....any animal being kept should should apply

i know we have all covered this many times before...(about every 2 -3 months)

kev

[OutFlying]

Kev,
I agree BOP's shouldn't be a special case, all animals should be treated correctly - a license won't achive this only enforcement will, but who will enforce these "extra" laws above and beyond the existing forces and laws.

Are we wanting licences only for BOP's used for hunting ? or will a licence be issued for pet keepers, falconry displays or centers ?

Jim.

[Kevin Massey]

personaly...i would say any pet/animal should be licenced...that includes cats and dogs.... and not just a 30 pence licence either....

kev

[OutFlying]

But that wouldn't stop rich ******s,

Who is going to enforce the conditions behind the licence ?

[Kevin Massey]

i dunno?...you always get all techincal :-) .... maybe the money raised from licensing...the government could open the "animal licence and welfare department" with 10,000 oficers...funded via £40 p/a for b-o-p....£50 p/a for dogs...and £500 p/a for cats ???

i dunno really...

kev

[Achilles]

But that wouldn't stop rich ******s,

Who is going to enforce the conditions behind the licence ?

I will be looking for a job in about 3 years. It would take that amount of time to produce working regulations (bearing in mind how slow the government is).

[Pitbull]

Do you think that if breeders had to register with say DEFRA and defra had say a yearly quota on certain species that this could possibly help. thus reducing the amount of BOP available. I know that this would more than likely drive the prices up. It would also get rid of the supply and demand. This might get rid of the license issue

[Barbary Boy]

i havent read all the threads on this one so if im repeating someones line im sorry.who would set the standards? ive allready expressed my concerns over certain perches that lots of you swear by, and who would examine/determine if some one was worthy? there are a lot of people out there making a good living as "proffesional falconers" in one form or another and loads of them are inept to say the least! i am no expert and not a top notch falconer by any means but i dont know anyone who i would consider in a position to come here and decide if i should be granted a license or not. i think weve missed the boat on this one and worry that there are now to many falconers/bop keepers to actually do anythingabout .

[Barbary Boy]

this ones really niggling me. everyone these days is taking courses at centers, right. but there is no licensing or benchmark for them!i have friends who run some and dont want to upset them but anyone can open a bop center and teach the "noble art" to totally green beginers and theyll think your god, some of these places,and i know this for a personal fact are owned/run by people with less than 5yrs experience and they have never hunted!perhaps a start could be made by introducing some basic standards and levels of competancy for anyone profiting by teaching falconry?

[Kevin Massey]

this ones really niggling me. everyone these days is taking courses at centers, right. but there is no licensing or benchmark for them!



i agree and also breeders..... should come under some legistation...(how ever u spell it)

[Kitana]

Is there no reglementation at all in your country concerning possession of a BoP???
Here in Québec we have loads of laws concerning animals, monkeys and great cats are not allowed at all, and BoP have been allowed just recently with a falconry license, for which you have to take a 15 hours formation. The laws are very strict, no wild caught birds allowed, only captive breds. We do not have a sponsorship program such as in the USA and can keep as many birds as we want with the right permit, but we need the permit and we have to pass the inspection and take the formation...
As I understand it, anybody in UK can buy a hawk of any specie, or an owl, and keep it the way he wants, as a pet even, without any problem? Have I misunderstood??
Thanks!

[Kevin Massey]

yes u r correct........ however naitive birds to the uk(alsobirds that migrate through the uk) do need an a10 certificate...but once again any tom,dick or harry at any age can get one

kev

[Falconer1000]

after just having dealing with a complete nob of a person who belives he can call himself a falconer i can see how licencing would do the sport far more good than bad,

[Kitana]

OK... Here the falconers themselves asked for the reglementation and helped making the law texts. As most BoP species are endangered or near to be in the wild, they are considered as needing protection from the public... Hell most people cannot even take care of their dog properly, what of a BoP!!
The reason advocated by our falconers here to justify the reglementation is that it protects good falconers against the consequences of the possible bad actions of a few stupied individuals... When a guy do something wrong with a BoP, it's all the falconry community who receives the blame... And as hunting is highly looked upon by animal protectors, falconers have to adopt a more than perfect behavior toward their birds to stay accepted by the public... Protecting the sport is all a question of public image...

[HawkWorks]

Today we got a letter from DEFRA.

i have been doing falconry professionally now for a few years and i strongly believe that there should be some sort of license. I believe that everyone should have to sit sometime or have to do some sort of apprenticeship.
I think that if falconry is going to survive for many years to come some sort of license should be brought in. not just for the new up a coming falconer but for falconry company's as well. because I have work with some people that have centers and don't even know how to train birds

[HawkWorks]

Today we got a letter from DEFRA. Mostly concerning bird 'flu. It seems according to Statutory Instrument #2989 The Avian Influenza (Preventive Measures) Regulations 20005 - you now need a special licenec to go to field meets. If this is a temporary measure, it would have been better called a permit. Anyhow, it doesn't affect me.

The nex paragraph goes on to say:

You can apply for a licence -"Application for a licence to carry out falconry" Whaaaaaaaaaaaat?

We rang DEFRA & predictably, they know nothing about it.

Don't take it as gospel, but it appears it's the field meet permit, NOT a Falconry Licence

Good Hawking

Pete
____________________
More on licences

i have been doing falconry professionally now for a few years and i strongly believe that there should be some sort of license. I believe that everyone should have to sit sometime or have to do some sort of apprenticeship.
I think that if falconry is going to survive for many years to come some sort of license should be brought in. not just for the new up a coming falconer but for falconry company's as well. because I have work with some people that have centers and don't even know how to train birds

Do you think so? In the US there are less than 4000 falconers. They have 5 times the polpulation, all that land, free birds & a hunting culture.

If that were the level of participation in this country, how long do you think falconry can last in the face of the whackoes? They've already managed to get rid of foxhunting - now they've started on formal pheasant shoots.

[Wurkin]

I have to admit, there are pros and cons to both sides of this argument. One thing to always, and I mean ALWAYS remember. The people who regulate and write and/or enforce the rules are almost never a falconer. This means that they are totally clueless about what falconry is or what it entails. When I got my apprenticeship licence (I'm in Ontario, Canada) I had to stop the lady from giving me the wrong licence. I needed to explain to her what she was doing and how to do it. I also had to gather the information and provide it to my local conservation officer so he knew what I could and could not do. I still cringe a bit when out in the field, because I know he did not pass the information on correctly to the other officers in the field. So, I also carry a printed out pdf file of all the seasons, bag limits and rules with me. I would kill to be able to avoid all this hassle. This sport has been around for thousands of years, most without regulation. So you decide.

[HawkWorks]

Today we got a letter from DEFRA. Mostly concerning bird 'flu. It seems according to Statutory Instrument #2989 The Avian Influenza (Preventive Measures) Regulations 20005 - you now need a special licenec to go to field meets. If this is a temporary measure, it would have been better called a permit. Anyhow, it doesn't affect me.

The nex paragraph goes on to say:

You can apply for a licence -"Application for a licence to carry out falconry" Whaaaaaaaaaaaat?

We rang DEFRA & predictably, they know nothing about it.

Don't take it as gospel, but it appears it's the field meet permit, NOT a Falconry Licence



After about 10 phone calls, Shirley established that it was for the field meet permit.

Bear in mind that you need one.

Regulations last till may 31, but may of course be extended. Possibly indefinitely. Like Income Tax.

Good Hawking

Pete

[JFSeaman]

Ok, time to resurect this thread.

LANTRA Awards Beginning Falconry is finally a reality. You don't have to take a course if you are experienced. You don't have to be a member of a club.

It's not about judging which knot is better. It's about assesing whether you have the knowlege and skills to keep a raptor. There was no critisism.

For all of those in UK who say it's not enough, DO IT, PROVE IT, PARTISIPATE and fix it. If you are someone who says its not enough or not perfect so you won't do it, you are probably a pet keeper and self assesed know it all who shouldn't have a raptor in the first place.

PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS AND GET YOUR ASSMENT OR SHUT UP.

It's not that much. An experienced falconer should be able to get assesed for £55 or less. If you have 3 friends who are all willing and able to go on the same day to Romsey then you could get the cost down to £35. £15 of the costs goes to LANTRA for paperwork, that means the assesor is barley making minimum wage. You could wait for your club to get an assesor and get it cheaper still but say that you will do it!

I have no affiliation with Paul Manning who was my assesor. You can have all kinds of opinions about him but thats not the point. LANTRA and the Hawk Board trust Paul.

Call LANTRA and get the list. It seems commercial but is not nearly as commercial as you'd think.

DO IT or SHUT UP about the need for a scheme in the UK.

I'll shout down anyone who says it won't work until they ban me from this board. Banning me will have no impact except to have this board loose all credibility with the Hawk Board. You can say the Hawk Board has no crediblity anyway, who you gonna count in DEFRA?

LANTRA Awards Beginning Falconry assesment. I got mine, aren't you embarased that an American was one of the first in the UK outside the pilot to do it.

Get yours or get out of falconry!

[Accipter-Gentilis]

aren't you embarased that an American was one of the first in the UK

no why should i be?

[OutFlying]

I'll keep the £55 in my pocket thanks, falconry is about catching quarry.

Animal welfare is covered to the n'th degree already by law - if you can't look after the hawk then you'll be prosecuted, end of story.

Jim.

[JFSeaman]

Like I said. Pet keepers. You can't prosecute what you can't see. Don't the police have enough of a problem trying to keep up with bombers and child molesters. You want to burden them with looking after a bunch of pet keepers like your selfs.

PUT UP OR SHUT UP!

[OutFlying]

Why is my gos in danger because I don't want to give out £55 ?

Jim.

ps Why am I a pet keeper ?

[Accipter-Gentilis]

You want to burden them with looking after a bunch of pet keepers like your selfs.

:butthead: :finga:

lol:rolleyes:

[JFSeaman]

I have a friend with a 1 year old FHH, she is dying of kidney failure from genetic problems. She was so inbred and raised in such poor conditions that the breeder should be in jail. Where is your effing animal welfare.

My friend didn't know. Now he loves the bird so much he is driving back and forth from Marlow to Swindon trying to save her live. If he had been assesed before he got a bird he would have learned.

If the breeder had been exposed because the standard had been raised and no one would buy from him he'd quite selling sick birds.

PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

[JFSeaman]

Why is my gos in danger because I don't want to give out £55 ?

Jim.

ps Why am I a pet keeper ?

No but someone elses may be. Are you in this only for yourself?

[JFSeaman]

:butthead: :finga:

lol:rolleyes:
Like I said self posessed, self centered. Yeah, you are right you don't need assessment, you know everything. Please when you have time, fix the rest of the world so we are perfect like you.

[Accipter-Gentilis]

nope......

i think you are the one m8 trying to save world not me:finga:

you no peoples views on this subject and you still go on about it jf:yawinkle:

[OutFlying]

PUT UP OR SHUT UP - very good, did you report the breeder - your sounding like an idiot, will Lantra prevent inbreeding.

Answer No.

Will Lantra have any legal backing - Answer no.

Will someone make money out of it - ANSWER YES.


I have two children without the need for a certificate, also a dog / gos - I seem to manage ok without the need to go on a course for each of them.


The nanny state behaviour will finally ruin or F*ck the human race.

What happened to common sense ?

Jim.

ps SHUT UP because I'm not putting up, if you want send me £55 and I'll access you and even give you a shiny badge for tying a knot and shutting an aviary door safely.

[OutFlying]

No but someone elses may be. Are you in this only for yourself?

No not really, I contribute to the hawkboard via club fees but don't feel Lantra is the way forward.

Jim.

[JFSeaman]

PUT UP OR SHUT UP - very good, did you report the breeder - your sounding like an idiot, will Lantra prevent inbreeding.

Answer No.

Will Lantra have any legal backing - Answer no.

Will someone make money out of it - ANSWER YES.


I have two children without the need for a certificate, also a dog / gos - I seem to manage ok without the need to go on a course for each of them.


The nanny state behaviour will finally ruin or F*ck the human race.

What happened to common sense ?

Jim.

ps SHUT UP because I'm not putting up, if you want send me £55 and I'll access you and even give you a shiny badge for tying a knot and shutting an aviary door safely.

You talk about wanting a system and aren't willing to do anything.

No LANTA won't do anything directly. It's not about nany state, it about keeping the government out of falconry. You want the american system over here? Police showing up at your house at all hours. With the current trend in anti's you'll get it. If there is a nationally reconised scheme the anti's won't have a leg to stand on.

If I could get the name and address of the breeder, I'd do more than report him.

If you think someone is 'going to make money' how far will £15 go for LANTRA. If say 1000 get assesed that means LANTRA will get £15,000. The salaries to do the paper work will probably run around £20,000 then there's rates, rent, insurance so LANTRA will lose a minimum of £5,000 for the first 1000 falconers assesed.

The assessor I went to made exactly minumum wage and he supplied lunch and drinks. Where is he making the big bucks.

You don't have to read this thread.

PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

[JFSeaman]

No not really, I contribute to the hawkboard via club fees but don't feel Lantra is the way forward.

Jim.
Then tell us what the perfect system is NOW. I'll do that one to, just like I'll do the US apprentice scheme when I get home.

Oh yeah, in the states charges $100 per year for federal and variable for state. But take the federal, 4000 falconers at $100 per year, that's $400,000 per year for falconry and they send police out to harass falconers. Heck the president can't take a dump with out it costing more than $400,000. Who is making money on these schemes. No one.

PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

[Big JoeJoe]

What does this assessment consist of and where do the funds go?? I asked because I have seen a similar money making scheme come into existence, many years ago.

Cheers Joe

[Big JoeJoe]

It is very quite here pmsl

[JFSeaman]

What does this assessment consist of and where do the funds go?? I asked because I have seen a similar money making scheme come into existence, many years ago.

Cheers Joe
The Beginning Falconry assesment is 3 to 4 hours of discussion and hands on demonstration of your knowledge of husbandry, higene and handling. All it means is that you can demonstrate that you have the knowleged and skill to keep a raptor properly housed, clean, fed, handled safely.

£15 of the money goes to LANTRA for administration and issueing the certificate. Not much profit in that if you account for salaries, rent, rates even the paper to print it on. There aren't that many falconers to make a profit. Even if every raptor keeper in the country did it, they'd probably still loose money on it.

The other part of the assesment costs is variable. Coule be zero could be more. Depends on how you get assessed. If you were to get assessed through your club it could cost nothing beyond the £15 for LANTRA administration. If you were to get assesed indipendantly as I did it could cost upto £40 but I paid £35. Petrol for a weeks hunting costs more. If you were to get assesed as part of a falconry course it's hard to figure out what is course and what is assesment. The folks I talked to gave me the impression that as course providers they would want you to do a lot of study before taking the course if you were going to do the LANTRA to as none of them believe you can take the course and pass the assesment at one go.

[JFSeaman]

Look everyone, I didn't do it because I think it's the best system in the world, it isn't.

I didn't do it for self agrandizement. I will never meet any of you in prerson so who gives a rats what you think of me. Besides when I go home to the states I have to do the American scheme anyway.

I didn't do it because I'm affiliated with LANTRA or Hawk Board. I'm not anymore than any other club dues payer.

I did it because the UK needs a system. LANTRA is the only one on offer. It could work if you UK falconers support it. Yeah it's flawed. No, no one is going to get rich or even make one months mortgage payment on the procedes.

Why not give it a shot, it's not that much money or time.

I'm going to bed.

G'night.

[Big JoeJoe]

I personally dont think I need to be assessed as I assess myself daily from a formative point and a summative. Now I aint bothered what anyone thinks about my statement because I reavalute everything I do. When it comes to assessments the criteria can range enormously and this often means that mistakes in the construction and evaluation of things happen and a true result is not occured. If the assessment is a set piece and it is in comparison with types of formative and summative situations then it would be easy to learn and someone with any academic knowledge could became a lantra made falconer.

I think I will stick to my own way of things it has been doing me ok for many years now. I am glad your Lantra award has made you feel better as a falconer but we are not all clones and many people are aware of their status as falconers and dont need what you have JFSeaman but some may feel they do.

Cheers Joe

[JFSeaman]

I personally dont think I need to be assessed as I assess myself daily from a formative point and a summative. Now I aint bothered what anyone thinks about my statement because I reavalute everything I do. When it comes to assessments the criteria can range enormously and this often means that mistakes in the construction and evaluation of things happen and a true result is not occured. If the assessment is a set piece and it is in comparison with types of formative and summative situations then it would be easy to learn and someone with any academic knowledge could became a lantra made falconer.

I think I will stick to my own way of things it has been doing me ok for many years now. I am glad your Lantra award has made you feel better as a falconer but we are not all clones and many people are aware of their status as falconers and dont need what you have JFSeaman but some may feel they do.

Cheers Joe
And self contradicory for if you were that confident, why did you write a reply. For that matter, why post to this forum at all.

It would be possible to have an academic falconer except for, oh yeah that handling birds part.

Again, it's not about how you do it. It's about that you do it safe. LANTRA doesn't teach anything.

Why is it that the most vilrulent opposers to LANTRA so far are all goshawkers?

[OutFlying]

Lantra

No legal requirement.
No legal powers.


Doesn't seem to do much really does it.

If the government wants to intervene with falconry, it will be to ban it on "blood sport / hunting issues" - not because everyone doesn't have a certificate.

The Burns report, commissioned by the government recommended fox hunting under licence - not to ban it. But what did the Labour government due ? Yes that's right it banned it.


If Lantra is based on the idea of good hawk welfare but won't have any powers - how will this improve over the existing animal welfare laws ? If no one is going to enforce and police the keeping of hawks.

Jim.


ps I won't be putting up or shutting up ;)

[Big JoeJoe]

And self contradicory for if you were that confident, why did you write a reply. For that matter, why post to this forum at all.

It would be possible to have an academic falconer except for, oh yeah that handling birds part.

Again, it's not about how you do it. It's about that you do it safe. LANTRA doesn't teach anything.

Why is it that the most vilrulent opposers to LANTRA so far are all goshawkers?


Self-contradictory (I believe you spelt contradictory wrong but I am not marking you for it lol) it is not. In addition, I am a very, very confident person in all lifestyles. The reason for my reply was to try :rolleyes: and teach you that not all people need to do a Lantra course to make them a better falconer. However, your eyes are pretty much closed on that thus showing your ignorance.

However, it does puzzle me that you needed this course. Was it to make you a better falconer? Were you making to many mistakes and needed correction? Alternatively, was it an ego thing? However, I am pleased you took it as you obviously needed to be reassured in some way of your falconry capabilities, Reading between the lines you must of felt inadequate in some way before your Lantra course. However, I do not and many others do not either, need to do this course as we know that we are doing it correctly and safely. Why do I need an assessor who may have less experience than myself explaining and showing me things I already know? I will answer that question for you, simply I don’t.

As you said in your third paragraph "LANTRA doesn't teach anything” now that JFSeaman is a contradiction in terms, think about it.

As for the Goshawkers dig in your last sentence:roll: forget it that does not wash with me dear fellow.:D

Cheers Joe

[JFSeaman]

Lantra

No legal requirement.
No legal powers.


Doesn't seem to do much really does it.

If the government wants to intervene with falconry, it will be to ban it on "blood sport / hunting issues" - not because everyone doesn't have a certificate.

The Burns report, commissioned by the government recommended fox hunting under licence - not to ban it. But what did the Labour government due ? Yes that's right it banned it.


If Lantra is based on the idea of good hawk welfare but won't have any powers - how will this improve over the existing animal welfare laws ? If no one is going to enforce and police the keeping of hawks.

Jim.


ps I won't be putting up or shutting up ;)
Negative, negative, negative.

Your kind shouts and shouts that we need to do something to stop the pet keepers but you aren't willing to participate. Saying LANTRA is not perfect so you won't do it only prooves that you don't really want any scheme or at least not if it applies to you.

Are you the kind of poser goshawker that carries your bird around on the high street but won't slip the bird because it could break a feather? I wouldn't think so from your postings but you are talking like one.

Not getting your LANTRA assesment because it's not perfect and it might not work is like not slipping your bird because it could get hurt or like not driving your car because you could have a crash. Try it. It may be that nothing comes of the LANTRA scheme but at least you tried. Just like it may be that your bird doesn't catch prey on a slip but at least you tried.

For me the money was less that the petrol to go hunting, the time spent was less than a day hunting, in fact I went hunting with my redtail and ferrets after and got a rabbit (full size, full grown), I flew my falcon after that and watched him chase wild pigeons for 1/2 hour. Pigeon chasing is not what I wanted but I tried.

How can you expect a new or prospective raptor keeper to meet a standard when you as a respected and experienced falconer won't take the time.

I may be the only person to get a LANTRA assesment ever outside the pilot program. It doesn't mean that much but it should mean that I won't kill a bird through miss handling, poor food, poor higene or any of the common ways nafs kill birds. It doesn't mean I'm great as a falconer or raptor keeper it only means that I can meet a minimum standard and was willing to try to proove it.

[OutFlying]

I see your anti pet keeping, is it a requirement for all hawks to be hunted ?

I like that idea, ban all falconry centers and displays, get rid of owls etc etc.


Now wake up,


Nothing about being negative just being real, animal welfare is already governed by law - lantra won't improve on this, if it can please explain how ?


Jim.

ps Never been on the high street, I leave that the to the Falconry centres :wink:




http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a130/outflying/DSCF0097.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a130/outflying/gos2005180.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a130/outflying/allsorts213Small.jpg


Now if you look carefully at the photographs, you will see healthy, fit, feather perfect hawks - correctly hunted, handled, housed and trained. Now I don't feel the need to give someone £55 to say "carry out doing what your doing".

[Tim Laycock]

I was going to put something on this thread, dont really need to now :supz:

No way Am I ****ing money away on nothing! :rolleyes:

[Big JoeJoe]

She looks healthy, fit, and feather perfect to me Jim. I know she is hunted correctly, and is handled correctly and safely; she is housed and trained as you say because I have seen it. A credit to you Jim.


I did notice she is a Goshawk as well Jim.:supz: :lol: :D

Cheers Joe

[OutFlying]

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a130/outflying/josephandspar2005.jpg




Here you are Joe, a couple of a spar - don't want JF to think it's only people who fly goshawks are anti lantra :rolleyes: This is also healthy, feather perfect and well trained - can't just be luck.

[Tim Laycock]

Jim,
Go back to flying a Harris Hawk m8, those "proper" birds look well shabby.:rolleyes:
I bet your too scared to fly them incase you loose them or break feathers. :rolleyes:

Get a lantra certificate first m8, they teach you how to fly on a creance :lol:

(I must be a Goshawker :rolleyes: )

[Big JoeJoe]

Here is one of my falcon and one of my harris hawk Jim:lol: :lol: :lol:

Have I got the hood on the Lantra way? I wish the Lantra course could teach me to catch more rabbits and game

Cheers Joe

[JFSeaman]

Self-contradictory (I believe you spelt contradictory wrong but I am not marking you for it lol) it is not. In addition, I am a very, very confident person in all lifestyles. The reason for my reply was to try :rolleyes: and teach you that not all people need to do a Lantra course to make them a better falconer. However, your eyes are pretty much closed on that thus showing your ignorance.

However, it does puzzle me that you needed this course. Was it to make you a better falconer? Were you making to many mistakes and needed correction? Alternatively, was it an ego thing? However, I am pleased you took it as you obviously needed to be reassured in some way of your falconry capabilities, Reading between the lines you must of felt inadequate in some way before your Lantra course. However, I do not and many others do not either, need to do this course as we know that we are doing it correctly and safely. Why do I need an assessor who may have less experience than myself explaining and showing me things I already know? I will answer that question for you, simply I don’t.

As you said in your third paragraph "LANTRA doesn't teach anything” now that JFSeaman is a contradiction in terms, think about it.

As for the Goshawkers dig in your last sentence:roll: forget it that does not wash with me dear fellow.:D

Cheers Joe

So I can't spell at 1am. I'm not bothered.

As for me needing a 'course', it shows that you are not really reading the posts only ranting against the scheme.

I didn't take a course, I was assesed, I was taught nothing at the assesment. It wasn't about making me a better falconer it wasn't about learning, it was about what I have learned in my apprentiseship.

You are just trying to make out that you are better because you think you don't need assesment. You are probably right you don't need an assesment. Are you willing to prove it by getting one and becoming and example for minimum standard. Yes you as and experienced falconer far excede the minimum standard so set an example for the future.

It's all about the future.

[JFSeaman]

I see your anti pet keeping, is it a requirement for all hawks to be hunted ?

I like that idea, ban all falconry centers and displays, get rid of owls etc etc.


Now wake up,


Nothing about being negative just being real, animal welfare is already governed by law - lantra won't improve on this, if it can please explain how ?


Jim.

ps Never been on the high street, I leave that the to the Falconry centres :wink:


...

Now if you look carefully at the photographs, you will see healthy, fit, feather perfect hawks - correctly hunted, handled, housed and trained. Now I don't feel the need to give someone £55 to say "carry out doing what your doing".

Again and again you say LANTRA isn't perfect so you won't do it.

Yet you say there should be a much higher standard.

Setup up scheme that will work then.

We can see that your birds are healthy, happy and hunt. But so much talk talk. You aren't really willing to stand up to your pears and proove it.

[OutFlying]

Prove it :lol: , do that everytime i fly in company ;)

If your happy to qualify for a certificate that DOESN'T (DOESN@T) include free flying and hunting - then your really proving your falconry experience.


A little information for you - most hawks will die when in hunting condition - not when fat sat in the aviary or at creance stage. So go back and devised a qualification that judges a persons skill at weight management and field skills.

Last time I look at the defination of falconry it involved hunting quarry.

Jim.

ps Lantra ain't a falconry licence.

[Big JoeJoe]

So I can't spell at 1am. I'm not bothered.

As for me needing a 'course', it shows that you are not really reading the posts only ranting against the scheme.

I didn't take a course, I was assesed, I was taught nothing at the assesment. It wasn't about making me a better falconer it wasn't about learning, it was about what I have learned in my apprentiseship.

You are just trying to make out that you are better because you think you don't need assesment. You are probably right you don't need an assesment. Are you willing to prove it by getting one and becoming and example for minimum standard. Yes you as and experienced falconer far excede the minimum standard so set an example for the future.

It's all about the future.

The spelling was just a bit of jesting from me I apologies.

JF I am ranting at the scheme because it is not for me. However, I am not trying to make out I am better, I am a very humble man. I am not willing to prove anything as I have nothing to prove. I dont think you can grasp the concept that I am happy with my birds welfare and my practice as a falconer, therefore a Lantra certificate will do nothing for me but leave me £55 pounds short in my bank account.

I set my example to all I know and those that wish to know I dont need to do a Lantra course to set that.

Cheers Joe

[JFSeaman]

respectrully to OutFlying.

You say you are against Centres, how the heck are new falconers going to get trained. You don't seem willing to do anything. Perhaps you have helped new falconers learn proper skills, can you proove it? Where is their proof of meeting a minimum standard.

LANTRA knows they are not qualified to train falconers, that's why the scheme has falconers training falconers.

LANTRA knows they are not qualified to have actual LANTRA staff do the assesments, that's why experienced falconers do the assesments.

LANTRA with the guidence of the Hawk Board and nationally respected falconers is just the administrator of the scheme. Their only knowledge is how to administer a scheme and do the paperwork to record that a minimum standard was met.

It is very possible that Niel Forbes or Nick Fox or Jim Chick could ***** my assesor. My assessor as a more experienced falconer would have to prove to them that I proved to him that I met the minimum standard.

So far everyone that has provided negative comments keeps saying they don't need a course and don't want anyone to make any money.

LANTRA is not offering a course only administering an assesment.

The mounts of money for the assesment wouldn't buy a nice dinner. Who is making any money.

Will this scheme stop bad things happening to captive raptors now, today, instantly? No. Is it a start, possible improving the future making things the way we believe they should be, yes.

You've spent a lot of time trying to prove to me that you could meet a minimum standard. Why not do it to a falconry assesor?

[OutFlying]

A little information for you - most hawks will die when in hunting condition - not when fat sat in the aviary or at creance stage. So go back and devised a qualification that judges a persons skill at weight management and field skills.

Last time I look at the defination of falconry it involved hunting quarry.

Jim.

ps Lantra ain't a falconry licence.

Maybe you missed the above from an earlier post.

[OutFlying]

JF - I have no intention or need to prove anything to yourself or anyone else.

Jim.

[JFSeaman]

JF - I have no intention or need to prove anything to yourself or anyone else.

Jim.
That's fine and you have every right to do just that. I get nothing if you do, I get nothing if you don't.

Are you making out that I am stupid for trying to support a way through that could bring other raptors keepers part way up to your standard?

The beginning falconry award probably covers what most americans learn in the first three months. To me that means that the job is ony 1/8th done to have a true falconry standard. Got to start somewhere.

Given the UK/English resistance to change, how about we start building this house one brick at a time.

[JFSeaman]

A little information for you - most hawks will die when in hunting condition - not when fat sat in the aviary or at creance stage. So go back and devised a qualification that judges a persons skill at weight management and field skills.

Last time I look at the defination of falconry it involved hunting quarry.

Jim.

ps Lantra ain't a falconry licence.

Maybe you missed the above from an earlier post.
Risks while hunting are part of life. Perhaps we should ban bicycles so no one ever gets hurt.

It is for 'beginning', no where does it say fully qualified.

Yes, I may have missed that and I agree that a LANTRA Award for Beginning Falconry is not a falconry license, it's just what it says, beginning. ref previous post.

[JFSeaman]

Those of you posting against the award are probably more experienced and dare I say 'better' falconers than I am. But that's not what it is about is it.

[Tim Laycock]

Im not pulling the award down but to me its a bit like going out and getting a certificate to say I can competently complete a three point turn when I have been driving for 12 years.

[JFSeaman]

Im not pulling the award down but to me its a bit like going out and getting a certificate to say I can competently complete a three point turn when I have been driving for 12 years.
Yeah, I agree with that but it's too hard to make an analogy so I'll switch to something else.

In this country building trades are completely unregulated (to the best of my knowledge). People are getting ripped off everday (fact: my neighbor lost 8,000 to a rogue builder). Shouldn't there be some form of certification that says your builder meets a minimum standard? There are great builders in this country that have been doing it properly for decades, refusing to participate only keeps the door open for nafs because it suppresses any standards.

Same for falconry.

[OutFlying]

Same for falconry,

Same for gundogs,

Same for ferrets,

Same for all animals. We'll need qualifications to breathe next.

Jim

[Big JoeJoe]

That was well put Tim. Now can you see where I and others are comming from JF. Some falconers dont feel the need to do the Lantra course, while some do.

Those that dont choose to do it may feel compitant enough already and their choice is not to do it, now that is not wrong. Those who do not feel compitant can choose to go and do the course as well as those who are compitant and choose to do the course that is not wrong either. What is wrong is trying to force down peoples throats that your concept of things is correct while others are not.

Cheers Joe

[MickeyDredd]

In this country building trades are completely unregulated (to the best of my knowledge). People are getting ripped off everday (fact: my neighbor lost 8,000 to a rogue builder). Shouldn't there be some form of certification that says your builder meets a minimum standard?

A certificate of competence as a builder is not a certificate not to be a rip-off merchant though.

Hmm, perhaps a useful analogy there. ;)

[JFSeaman]

That was well put Tim. Now can you see where I and others are comming from JF. Some falconers dont feel the need to do the Lantra course, while some do.

Those that dont choose to do it may feel compitant enough already and their choice is not to do it, now that is not wrong. Those who do not feel compitant can choose to go and do the course as well as those who are compitant and choose to do the course that is not wrong either. What is wrong is trying to force down peoples throats that your concept of things is correct while others are not.

Cheers Joe
IT'S NOT A COURSE!

Can't you read!

I can't force anyone to do anything. I'm not forcing you to read (miss read) these postings.

[JFSeaman]

Same for falconry,

Same for gundogs,

Same for ferrets,

Same for all animals. We'll need qualifications to breathe next.

Jim
Ok, you believe that there should be no qualificatons.

Any breeder should be able to sell to any member of the public a raptor.

I respect your differing opinion as you seem to respect but disagree with mine.

[GoodFooter]

I dont see a 'qualification' as a viable compulsary option
...... however a training scheme for newbies to ensure they are taught the fundimental basics correctly wouldnt be a bad thing..... to do this there would have to be some sort of regulation to ensure a basic uniformity or an approved scheme....
Look at this forum 'a voice for all' where some newbie are offering advice with no experience.... the same is true of some courses. People who have very little experience training others!
Were I back at the beginning I would want to know that the person advising me knew there stuff.....It is easy as an experienced person to know who is who and what advice is total poppycock but for a newbie????
Approval of a standard....for begginers whouldnt necessarily be a bad thing would it?
Rob

[Big JoeJoe]

IT'S NOT A COURSE!

Can't you read!

I can't force anyone to do anything. I'm not forcing you to read (miss read) these postings.


Look up the word course in a dictionary or thesaurus and tell me it aint a course derrr.

Do you know what assessment means or are you totally thick. Explain to me(I doubt you know) because I am about to explain to you in full what entails an assessment. You keep harping on about it but you dont seem to understand it dear fellow.

Cheers Joe

[Accipter-Gentilis]

bottom line here jfstains is you are not gonna achieve anything with this argument as you already no peoples oppinion on the situation....

so give it up as a bad job

[JFSeaman]

It doesn't matter anymore.

I just went to check on my birds and all that's left is the bit of fence rail laying on the ground, the twine I had tied around their their feet and a pile of feathers.

Must have been a fox or cat.

Oh well, one redtail, one perigrine budgie down.

I guess I'll go buy new ones.

[JFSeaman]

Look up the word course in a dictionary or thesaurus and tell me it aint a course derrr.

Do you know what assessment means or are you totally thick. Explain to me(I doubt you know) because I am about to explain to you in full what entails an assessment. You keep harping on about it but you dont seem to understand it dear fellow.

Cheers Joe

This shows that LANTRA and the Hawk Board aren't presenting it properly.

Look up AMews and Paul Manning (http://www.amews.com/) give them a call and ask the difference between an assesment for existing falconers and a course.

Explain away. I'm happy to read it. I am sure I can learn something. I never want to stop learning. I may be thick, I sure can't hold down a job but I still try to learn new things.

Are we starting to get personal? I don't really want that. It's not about who is better.

I believe it will work, you don't. That's ok.

Some people believe speed limits reduce crashes, some don't. That's ok too.

We are allowed our opinions. We are allowed to voice our opinions in free countries (sort of) like the UK and US. That's what this forum is about. It's not about your opinion or mine should be the only opinion. Just a place to discuss it.:supz: :supz: :supz:

[Big JoeJoe]

It doesn't matter anymore.

I just went to check on my birds and all that's left is the bit of fence rail laying on the ground, the twine I had tied around their their feet and a pile of feathers.

Must have been a fox or cat.

Oh well, one redtail, one perigrine budgie down.

I guess I'll go buy new ones.

Now your just being silly but nothing wrong with that lol

Cheers Joe

[JFSeaman]

bottom line here jfstains is you are not gonna achieve anything with this argument as you already no peoples oppinion on the situation....

so give it up as a bad job
I'm sure that there are people with a more posative opinion but you lot slag off at them all the time.

BTW: I'm sure that 'jfstains' is some kind of personal attack or slur but I'm to thick to get it, could you please explain. Remember I am a stupid american.

[Kevin Massey]

I'm sure that there are people with a more posative opinion but you lot slag off at them all the time..


why is it a case that if a member is'nt interested and they state why they are not interested is it slagging off?

[JFSeaman]

why is it a case that if a member is'nt interested and they state why they are not interested is it slagging off?
Huh? What? I lost the plot on this one.

[Accipter-Gentilis]

BTW: I'm sure that 'jfstains' is some kind of personal attack or slur but I'm to thick to get it, could you please explain. Remember I am a stupid american.

nope not a personal attack at all just a bit of forum banter i assure you jf....

calling us pet keepers could be taken for a personal attack but then again i am not the one who is insighting arguments you are with wordings like PUT UP OR SHUT UP ............

all the best....

AG

[JFSeaman]

I'm not calling the UK falconers pet keepers either. Ask 'IamTheWeasle'. I have defended the UK falconers on a US forum where he is a moderator. Nearly got me banned for it.

Yep, I am insighting an argument becuase it needs to be discussed. That's what a forum is for.

Yep, I used inflamatory statements. Do you think things will change if we quietly say 'oh, that's nice' but never do anything.

Now lots of people on this forum know that the award is not a license, it's not a full falconry qualification. It is proof that you are compotent to 'begin' to practice falconry.

If the existing falconers all refuse because they know what they know, how can we get any new prospective falconers to seek a 'beginning' award through a properly administered apprentice scheme. No where is taking a commercial based course required to get the award.

If I were approached by a new or prospective falconer about courses and qualifications and said I recommend them. The next thing the newbie would say is did you do yours? If I said no, what motivation would the newbie have to seek the knowledge or to get a minimum qualification. And please rememeber the qualification is assessed by falconers not some LANTRA desk jockie. The newbie would have no motivation to learn and another threat to captive raptor welfare is born.

It isn't perfect.
It may not survive
It is possible that it could make a difference.