hunting weight

[Budfin]

I've been a member to the forum for a while now, never posted as yet but I need a bit of advice as to the difference of flying weight and hunting weight, I know hunting weights lower but how do you come to find the best weight for both, as you can guess I'm new to this....on my first bird (a male harris) everythings going good so far but would be gratefull for the help...?

[FlameHairedFalconer]

Hi

In very basic terms the flying weight is the weight at which a harris will return to you. She may attempt quarry but will not try hard and may give up on a tail chase.

The hunting weight is the weight at which the hawk will be actively looking for prey and hunting. She will fly hard at quarry and not give up.

There may only be 1/2oz to 1oz difference in these weights and with a male harris you will need to ensure you are 100% on weight control or you risk going low when the temperature drops.

FHF

[Barbary Boy]

everyone has thier own ideas on this bud but most people generally go for an initial reduction of around 10%. so! if your male h/hawk starts off at say 1lb 9oz top weight then he needs to lose approx 2.5oz as a starter. he may need a little further reduction but should be able to be brought back up after a while.flying and hunting weights are totally different, an experienced old hand might well fly to you at 1lb 9oz but totally ignore quarry and need to be brought down to 1lb 6oz to take an interest in killing anything, these weights are not exact, just a guidline example.

[FalconryMews101]

weights a tricky one obviously cause it differs from type/sex/time of yr an no birds the same.
You should of found the flying weight of your bird while training on the creance when hes most responsive. i'll give u an example of one of my birds a male harris, his flying weight to start this season was 1lb-8.5 and he would readily fly at that so i pushed him up a little more to c his reaction at 1.9 he was a tad sluggish an i know at 1lb-9.5 he wouldnt be interested. But now the nights are getting pretty cold and he's in top condition he actually flys at 1.9. If i'm going hunting with him i might shave quarter of an ounce off him to give him that little bit of bite. If your really struggling or worried find a local falconer to assist you.

[FlameHairedFalconer]

I'm loath to use the term 'Yarak' as I feel it has been overused and used out of context as well, but the basic premise does apply here.

You should be able to 'see' a change in your hawks demenour at hunting weight in the Yarak sense. This is something that does come from experience with your hawk in the field. I could even tell exactly what my harris had spotted by his body language, pheasant, rabbit or mouse!

FHF

[Sparrow Hawker]

Totally agree with what FHF has said,

What you'll find is that both hunting weight and flying weight will increase as the bird gets fitter and puts more muscle mass on.

For example my male harris at the beginning of last season was flying at 1lb 8oz (flying weight) to the fist however when it came to hunting I had to bring his weight down to 1lb 7 1/4oz. As he got fitter and towards the backend of the season I had him hunting at 1lb 8oz.

Keep an eye on the birds keeness and response time and adjust the weight accordingly and you won't go far wrong!

All the best for the rest of this season Budfin,

HH

[Kanati]

Totally agree with what FHF has said,

What you'll find is that both hunting weight and flying weight will increase as the bird gets fitter and puts more muscle mass on.

For example my male harris at the beginning of last season was flying at 1lb 8oz (flying weight) to the fist however when it came to hunting I had to bring his weight down to 1lb 7 1/4oz. As he got fitter and towards the backend of the season I had him hunting at 1lb 8oz.

Keep an eye on the birds keeness and response time and adjust the weight accordingly and you won't go far wrong!

All the best for the rest of this season Budfin,

HH

just to add to the above... the hunting weight can also go up with the correct motivation... a hawk that kills and then feeds well on a regular basis will put all the efford in at a higher wight then a super fit hawk thats not rewarded enough for its efforts. Motivate your hawk as well and control the weight and you will do well.

[Jarreth]

Totally agree with motivation. You may need to lower weight to start with until you bird has the idea, but letting him feed up on his quarry, certainly everytime the first few times he catches and then regularly after that, will stop him being quite so glove orientated, whilst still responsive. He will soon hunt at a higher weight which means of course he will have more energy, better flights and be more sucessful, all a positive spiral.

Another good motivator is to try to make his first attempts easy and preferably take him to an area if you can where there are half grown rabbits, I know that is difficult this time of year sometimes, but there are some out there. The reason is that a half grown rabbit isn't quite as accomplished at kicking a Harris off as an adult is, and this can put males off chasing them, sometimes altogether! And if it didn't take too much effort and he suceeded he will be keener next time, nothing like a pulse to excite! Too dificult and repeated failures tend to make them dispondant, and can have a knock on effect on hunting weights, therefore energy.

Once sorted though, go for the good flights! There is nothing worse than a Harris stood over a rabbit hole!

What do you call your bird?

Good luck

[FlameHairedFalconer]

I totally agree with motivation etc and that the response weight may change as the hawk gathers confidence, skill and experience.

But the most important thing here is that you recognise the body language of your hawk and therefore can anticipate (working with weight and keel) their response. This might take a whole season with your hawk to understand, so you do need to be very careful with weight control and not take the attitude that 'shes caught 5 rabbits so I can push her weight up by 1oz'.

FHF

[Jarreth]

Definately with FHF on that one! Learning to read your bird is invaluable because it gives you opportunity to avert situations and distract it before it does something you don't really want it to as well.

[Budfin]

Thanx everyone that posted a reply....lots of good advise there...! cheers all...!!!!

[SycoPaff]

when u hunt with your little matey make sure you sit with him and feed him too full so he wont eat no more! give him the next day off! (no food or flying) then hunt him the next day and feed2full again then the next day off again! keep manning the ******y outa him and his weight should fly! and if he is manned well he should hunt alot better! went out it my mate jus an hour ago and his male harris (2nd feather), hunting at 1lb 11 half oz and rising though doing this! he caught rabbit on a decent 150ft slip! lovely catch!

hope this is a helpfull opinion
Stuart

[Austin]

When you get within that hunting weight a lot of things can affect a bird in the field, such as temp., wind conditions, enviorment conditions and numerous other things. Trying to correct a bird who did not do well in the field today by weight control may not be the answer always. Getting to know your bird and how it reacts to you will tell a lot about the way it will perform in the field. Do a little reading on the subject from some falconers who know the Harris and it's behavioral patterns. Every bird has it's own personality and sometimes one thing won't work the same for everyone.

[North East Harris Hawker]

good thread this one, heres another thing, lets say for arguments sake that there is an ounce difference between flying and killing weights, as the season progresses (or even once you have got into your third season ) you will find that the weight difference between flying and hunting narrows. To the point where there is no such thing as flying and hunting weight. Just a hunting weight. The comments about kill feeding are spot on, a bird that knows there is an equal partnership with the falconer will behave in a much more pleasant way than the starved/robbed bird.
Personally my girl kicks off the season around 2lb 3 oz but i dont like to keep her this low as she ends up chasing sparrows etc,
.
once she kills i put her up an ounce to 2lb4 and she will stay here for a week or so, after this i take her up in half ounce increments every fortnight until she hits around 2lb 7 1/2 oz/ 2lb 8 anything higher than this and she loses the interest to hunt.
.
I dont get greedy for kills two or three head per trip is enough always ending the day with a bit of a feeding session (even if this is on an earlier kill)
it keeps her motivated and a joy to handle

[Coedhirion]

I totally agree with motivation etc and that the response weight may change as the hawk gathers confidence, skill and experience.

But the most important thing here is that you recognise the body language of your hawk and therefore can anticipate (working with weight and keel) their response. This might take a whole season with your hawk to understand, so you do need to be very careful with weight control and not take the attitude that 'shes caught 5 rabbits so I can push her weight up by 1oz'.

FHF

That about says it, my male Harris hunts at 1lb 10.1/4, if he drops 1/4oz he will bunk off and hunt alone if he thinks I'm not putting up enough. add 1/4oz and he will be slow to move up and again if nothing moves he will wander and sit up a tree rather disinterested. I notice these big differences as I know my bird well. However after an accident last year he nailed a fast runing rabbit while he was on a creance for safety sake, as his weight was 2lb 3oz !!! it was this high in order to get him over a nasty gash on the leg,... but a good hunter will never turn down a good opportunity :lol: :lol:

[MattSpar]

when u hunt with your little matey make sure you sit with him and feed him too full so he wont eat no more! give him the next day off! (no food or flying) then hunt him the next day and feed2full again then the next day off again! keep manning the ******y outa him and his weight should fly! and if he is manned well he should hunt alot better! went out it my mate jus an hour ago and his male harris (2nd feather), hunting at 1lb 11 half oz and rising though doing this! he caught rabbit on a decent 150ft slip! lovely catch!

hope this is a helpfull opinion
Stuart

Why, if one has the opportunity to fly daily, should any falconer overfeed his bird to the extent that he can only fly once in 48 hours? I see no practical advantage in this whatsoever.

[DeathFromAbove]

a problem i've found with my FHH that weight or manning doesn't seem to solve is, whenever i go to new ground or on a meet i always drop her weight a tad if it's new ground, and she flys beautifly for me if it's similar land to what i use where quarry is fairly scarse, so she knows her best option is to stick close (ish) to me for the better chance of a slip, but, when flying in quarry rich ground it's as tho she's so spoilt for choice and her responsiveness nearly dissapears no matter what i do with her weight. It seems to me it's just going to be one of these problems that time will only solve, as nothing i've done so far has sorted it.

[SycoPaff]

Why, if one has the opportunity to fly daily, should any falconer overfeed his bird to the extent that he can only fly once in 48 hours? I see no practical advantage in this whatsoever.
the advantage is that you are imatating wild behaviour and your bird will fly on appatite and not hunger, with a near enough non-existant keel bone your bird is stong and full of energy and really wants2kill something!

[MattSpar]

the advantage is that you are imatating wild behaviour and your bird will fly on appatite and not hunger, with a near enough non-existant keel bone your bird is stong and full of energy and really wants2kill something!

No, I can't see any logic in that at all. All you're doing is wasting half the flying season. How can a bird reach its full potential if it sits half the season with a crop full to bursting point? We all have our own methods, but I certainly wouldn't even contemplate using that one.

[OutFlying]

Be a bast*rd if it rained on the next hunting day available after the big feed, and it was glorious the day before.

I'm of the same thinking as you Mattspar.

OF.

[MattSpar]

Be a bast*rd if it rained on the next hunting day available after the big feed, and it was glorious the day before.

Yes indeed.

[Ben C]

Not only that, I'll be ******ed if I am going to sit on me hands if I know I can get out and hunt: Hasn't failed yet......everyday for as long as possible :supz: :supz:

[MattSpar]

when u hunt with your little matey make sure you sit with him and feed him too full so he wont eat no more! give him the next day off! (no food or flying) then hunt him the next day and feed2full again then the next day off again! keep manning the ******y outa him and his weight should fly! and if he is manned well he should hunt alot better! went out it my mate jus an hour ago and his male harris (2nd feather), hunting at 1lb 11 half oz and rising though doing this! he caught rabbit on a decent 150ft slip! lovely catch!

hope this is a helpfull opinion
Stuart

Furthermore, what becomes of this method in the case of large falcons, which MUST be flown daily if they are to perform in any style?

[OutFlying]

imprints spars wouldn't like it.

[MattSpar]

Neither would my wife, who's always happy to see disappear.

[Pogger]

Furthermore, what becomes of this method in the case of large falcons, which MUST be flown daily if they are to perform in any style?
What type of falcon do you mean, waiting on or out of the hood?

[MattSpar]

It makes no difference. Why would it?

[Pogger]

I only asked because my crow falcons can be fed as much as they will take at the end of the day and still be fit to fly the next. Mind you I do work them very hard.

[MattSpar]

I only asked because my crow falcons can be fed as much as they will take at the end of the day and still be fit to fly the next. Mind you I do work them very hard.

But you ARE flying them daily, unlike the regime suggested by Sycopaff, so I don't really see what you're driving at.

[Pogger]

I'm only suggesting that you can give a bird a full crop and fly daily if you really want to.

[OutFlying]

Depends on what you feed them though and how you class a full crop.

[Pogger]

Your right about what you feed them, normally about half the crop is whatever the falcon has caught, the rest made up a lighter protein meat such as young quail, rabbit, ect. As for amount, as much as she will take.

[MattSpar]

I'm only suggesting that you can give a bird a full crop and fly daily if you really want to.

I'm sorry, I think that's very misleading. Small hawks flown in mid-winter may need a full crop plus something in the morning if their weight is not to fall, other birds may well be unmanageable on a full crop daily, especially in warm weather.

[Pogger]

I'm sorry, I think that's very misleading. Small hawks flown in mid-winter may need a full crop plus something in the morning if their weight is not to fall, other birds may well be unmanageable on a full crop daily, especially in warm weather.
I only brought it up because you said about large falcons, that's all.

[MattSpar]

Yes, I realise that, but it may give someone without the necessary experience, entirely the wrong idea. I still don't see how you manage to give your falcons a full crop after each day's flying. Do you do this under all conditions? Heat, cold, birds which fly only once per day, those that fly several times? What about the birds' individual metabolic rates? These vary from bird to bird as much as do our own. Presumably, if you do this, you need never have to bother to weigh a bird as it will get a full crop anyway?

[Pogger]

Yes, I realise that, but it may give someone without the necessary experience, entirely the wrong idea. I still don't see how you manage to give your falcons a full crop after each day's flying. Do you do this under all conditions? Heat, cold, birds which fly only once per day, those that fly several times? What about the birds' individual metabolic rates? These vary from bird to bird as much as do our own. Presumably, if you do this, you need never have to bother to weigh a bird as it will get a full crop anyway?
You're right, I'm sorry. I should have thought of someone with little experience reading that post.

As to my falcons I've found that if you work them hard they really do need as much as they can eat. If you work them more than once a day very often they are taking two full crops. Once she is getting fit and working hard the amount of food she'll turn over really is alot. Some of the falcons I'll fly more than once a day, others only once but they are up for a long time. I can't say that hot or cold effects amount of food as much as I though it would but I do get concerned in hot weather, making sure that the birds have plenty of opportunity to drink.

[MattSpar]

Are your birds imprints by any chance?

[Pogger]

Only one of them, a female pere/saker. All the rest are parent reared. To be honest it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference.

[SycoPaff]

No, I can't see any logic in that at all. All you're doing is wasting half the flying season. How can a bird reach its full potential if it sits half the season with a crop full to bursting point? We all have our own methods, but I certainly wouldn't even contemplate using that one.
i have rescued a few wild birds working in a bird if prey center and realise that especially with sparrowhawks that you cant feel their keel bones, but they are still hunting! Why? when i started working with a polish falconer, he explained it2me! he taught me that with proper training a bird will fly4you without out a sharp keel! now this man has been training birds (gos' mainly) out of the wild for 10yrs, and hunting male gos' after hares and phesant at a weight that the majoraty of british falconers would find themselves sittin under a tree or legging it across the countryside! why do his birds catch and come back? because the bird realises that his best place4getting fed2full is on his fist! and with months of manning at fat weight the bird has upmost trust in him!

i am friends with my birds! they are my best friends i am not his master, telling him what2do all the time because i reward him4 making tthe choice2come back! we hunt when we are ready and not when i want to nessecceraly! i hunt 4 the fun and so does my bird!

[Ben C]

[QUOTE=SycoPaff] and with months of manning at fat weight the bird has upmost trust in him!

QUOTE]

MONTHS!!!!! My hawk would be bored shitless and probably go AWOL looking for fun. Just get a crech reared or an imprint......if you want a fat friend that is :heart: :goodman: :goodman:

Genuine question: So after months of manning did your polish pal cut the weight on his Gos' at all?

[MattSpar]

Something doesn't add up here. You cannot fly a gos at top weight, or any bird come to that, not if you are serious about your sport, and unlike Sycopaff, I ensure any bird of mine is ready to fly when I decide, not when an overfed bird decides it's ready.

[SycoPaff]

Genuine question: So after months of manning did your polish pal cut the weight on his Gos' at all?[/QUOTE]
i dont think he did with his gos' but he did have the advantage of using2 or 3 baggies! but when he trained up some RTs he had2a little because they dont have the enthusiasm of a gos! he sed that they needed a little lower on their weight!

[SycoPaff]

Something doesn't add up here. You cannot fly a gos at top weight, or any bird come to that, not if you are serious about your sport, and unlike Sycopaff, I ensure any bird of mine is ready to fly when I decide, not when an overfed bird decides it's ready.
why wont a gos come back when fat? coz its not hungry enough or because it doesn't trust u?

[SycoPaff]

[QUOTE=SycoPaff] and with months of manning at fat weight the bird has upmost trust in him!

QUOTE]

MONTHS!!!!! My hawk would be bored shitless and probably go AWOL looking for fun. Just get a crech reared or an imprint......if you want a fat friend that is :heart: :goodman: :goodman:

Genuine question: So after months of manning did your polish pal cut the weight on his Gos' at all?

i always man a bird fat! then i know that i.e. when he steps up or jumps2my fist. he isn't doin it for the food. but because he trusts me! and this does take a long time! but if u dont have that time then you shouldn't have a bird!

[RabbitHawker]

Sorry but birds are only motivated by food(unless an imprint etc.) Manning is also essential, but a bird will only truly hunt well when it has the motivation of hunger to drive it. All my birds are flown as fat as I can fly them, and with experience( the bird) they will fly at higher weights, last Sunday both my male HH were high, 750 and 725g, about 25 high each, we had a slow start, but followed with 2 good hard rabbits, but I could not do this every day, they just know the game, and were hungry although high. Flying a bird too high as you are saying results in poor control and inconsistent performance. I hope to get most new birds flying free within 2 weeks as they are only getting unfit in the meantime, the manning carries on way after that.
Chris

[MattSpar]

Sorry but birds are only motivated by food(unless an imprint etc.) Manning is also essential, but a bird will only truly hunt well when it has the motivation of hunger to drive it. All my birds are flown as fat as I can fly them, and with experience( the bird) they will fly at higher weights, last Sunday both my male HH were high, 750 and 725g, about 25 high each, we had a slow start, but followed with 2 good hard rabbits, but I could not do this every day, they just know the game, and were hungry although high. Flying a bird too high as you are saying results in poor control and inconsistent performance. I hope to get most new birds flying free within 2 weeks as they are only getting unfit in the meantime, the manning carries on way after that.
Chris


Applause!!!

[Ben C]

[QUOTE=Ben C]

but if u dont have that time then you shouldn't have a bird!

I got the time..........but my inclination is to hunt not sit around for months while the hawk grows bored and the game grows hard............then harder...then impossible.

I have never heard of anyone manning for MONTHS thats all, not saying it can't be done or indeed that it is wrong. Just a bit odd thats all.:heart:

[MattSpar]

[QUOTE=SycoPaff]



I have never heard of anyone manning for MONTHS thats all, not saying it can't be done or indeed that it is wrong. Just a bit odd thats all.:heart:


No, it's more than a bit odd, it's extremely misleading for anyone with their first bird.

[SycoPaff]

i'm not saying that food has no importance in their hunting, but because they are hunted every other day, everytime i feed them its on the fist or their catch too full then no food the next day, then hunt again on appatite! then your bird builds up alot more muscle, has more energy and performs better! birds prefere to hunt when they have more energy, we all know that, and i know this is very different and quite opposite of course to most views and opinions but it does work!

[BHawk]

no matter what dont fall into the trap that "if a bird doesnt do what you want drop its weight," ive known someone who went by this idea and nearly killed a bird, you need to read the bird, their concious living creatures and being social they naturally become more intelligent as to help them in "society" so they arent simple creatures. it seems that once a falconer has learnt to read a bird, its characteristics, its behaviour, its style of hunting etc we seem to not notice the skill we have and so often forget to explain it to beginners, thats something you cant get out of a book.

[Ben C]

i'm not saying that food has no importance in their hunting, but because they are hunted every other day, everytime i feed them its on the fist or their catch too full then no food the next day, then hunt again on appatite! then your bird builds up alot more muscle, has more energy and performs better! birds prefere to hunt when they have more energy, we all know that, and i know this is very different and quite opposite of course to most views and opinions but it does work!


I am aware of hunting on appetite.................but we were talking about Manning. I still do not see the benefit of manning for months at a time. I PERSONALLY would rather cut the weight and hunt and then bring it up while hunting.................trust can also be formed at the scene of a kill, not just on the fist.....(IMHO and not as an expert).

[Kornie]

You can get away with a hell of a lot more with a really well manned bird. Manning on the fist outside of hunting time in my opinion is very important, the bird has to be more then happy to be on the glove and I have found that I have more control over a really well manned bird, then a not so manned bird.

Alex.

[Berkut]

I am aware of hunting on appetite.................but we were talking about Manning. I still do not see the benefit of manning for months at a time. I PERSONALLY would rather cut the weight and hunt and then bring it up while hunting.................trust can also be formed at the scene of a kill, not just on the fist.....(IMHO and not as an expert).
I agree with this guy.
With a hawk I feel it only really starts to learn once it has been flown free. You can mann it for as long as you like fat weight,but you wont see real results till the weight is reduced.Obviously it depends on the species. Harris Hawks and Redtails for example,once they are manned it is only really minimal maintenance manning that is required,whereas a parent reared Gos needs constant manning and at the start of the season it can be like starting with a new bird. As for flying weights I try and avoid flying at weights erring on the high side as you are encouraging bad habits.Even a good imprint Gos has a weight that it can be described as being in true yarak.I know when I fly my birds I want them to be focused on one thing and that is catching quarry and firing on all cylinders.Anything less is not good enough.

[Hardcore Hawker]

Why do people with especially Harris Hawks talk so much about hunting and flying weights surely there is no other weight than hunting weight what is the point of just flying a bird please enlighten me on this! as i just go out to hunt every day of the week i never give my bird a blow out on kills as i feel this to be unnessesary and even detrimental to the bird as missing hunting days is not good as mattspar sais a bird should be ready to fly at the weight you want it to be when you want it to be not when the bird is ready Gosses and spars for example dont have flying weights and hunting weights like a harris they have hunting weight and fxxk about weight and in my opinion a harris should be treated the same and as my male has taken a head count of nearly four hundred over four seasons i dont think bulging crops would give him any more motivation.

[Jack Merlin]

Just read this thread from the beginning.

There seems to be a lot of confusion here.

Are people saying that all hawks/falcons are trained the same way?

I'm reading posts by Harris Hawkers arguing with goshawkers, then someone who flies a falcon steps in.

I don't know much about HHs but it seems to me they are totally different to goshawks. You won't get far trying to train a gos by juggling its weight alone. Those pointy winged things do seem to be very sensitive to being the correct weight and that is something I never really mastered.

Frankly, being of the old school, it is against my nature to rely on weight control. Sure, I use it as a check but mainly work on body language and an occasional pinch of the sternum (if I can find it!<g>).

As for always maintaining a bird at flying weight in case I lose a day's hawking, I don't believe this can be correct. The small hawks in particular need to have their condition (weight, if you must) oscillated over several days, so they get a gorge every few days, then a rest day, then a few days flying -- or they end up like a lot of the sparrowhawks on this forum.:(

[Hardcore Hawker]

Jack merlin, have used the word weight in my post as it is something that a begginer can physically gauge by use of scales condition is something that takes many years of experience to gauge and get right i also use the scales only to see what the bird weighs out of interest not so that i know how it will fly a bird can be at three different phases of condition at the same weight these are constant, rising, or falling, and each can have a profound effect on a hawks performance on any given day there are so many variables as to be impossible to explain or teach it has to be learned through experience. And as for spars and gosses i believe the secret to these is a routine that is the same day in day out weathered at this time of day flown at that time of day Etc day in day out and when flown daily spars especially can be given a large crop of good quality food each day sometimes even fed a small amount early in the day with no casting to bolster the energy levels on cold days.

[Hobby]

The most productive way to keep your hawk would be to keep it around its hunting weight,giving it enough ration each day for it to be in the right condition the next, allowing for weather and amount of exercise.The idea of feast and famine with a hawk,in my experience, leads to an unpredictable bird where the falconer is forever chasing the correct weight/condition.Like any animal the regular routine I believe is paramount.The only way to get the best out of the bird is to carefully assess, each day, the hawks performance and attitude in conjunction with subtle changes in weight and allowing for additional influences such as amount of exertion,weather etc.If you allow your bird to overfeed,it only has to be withheld food subsequently to get back on form.
I have recently this season been tethering my bird inside at night in my unheated office, done originally for security,this has had a great effect in helping to achieve the above,elliminating much of the effect of changeable weather conditions and I am amazed at how much less she needs to eat for her weight to remain stable.She is put outside in the day free lofted before I fly her.
Of course it does not hurt occasional for the bird to feast.
Great thread.

[Mary Quite Contrary]

Aldo
Have to sit on the fence with this one.

I know someone who manns HH at fat weight and does a fantastic job with them. Once the bird has gained trust wth the falconer the bird is then subject to more of things in life. Having the trust the bird starts to realise that the falconer is not going to allow the bird to get in any danger.
Also it brings into the equasion the "WAR COMRADES" syndrome.
Soilders who dont get on form a great bond once they have been put in a traumatic and frightening scene. They become one and the frightening thing is the enemy. This applys to manning and does work on some birds.

Once a falcon has been manned on the fist and walked around a field for a hour the bond has doubled from just that first walk.

However i also know someone who doesnt do any manning at all without food present and this bird is very responsive and flys and hunts at various weights. But the food rules and thats all.

Blowing out a bird with food is a good thing and i would do it with washed chick and rabbit.I havent tried the method sycopath mentions and in my experience it would only work only on a falcon, because of there high metabolism. Although i am not ruling anything out.

In my very limited experience of Goshawks i wouldnt try this method. It doesnt make sense to try and make a gos love you without reducing its weight first as Goshawks are the only bird that will look at you in a strange way as if they havent seen you before , if you leave the room and comeback again. These birds are ruled by there stomach and without doubt they have a flying weight and hunting weight.

HH will be because of there nature have the widest range of flying weights. But this is done through good bond buliding and confidence.

[MattSpar]

Just read this thread from the beginning.

There seems to be a lot of confusion here.

Are people saying that all hawks/falcons are trained the same way?

I'm reading posts by Harris Hawkers arguing with goshawkers, then someone who flies a falcon steps in.

I don't know much about HHs but it seems to me they are totally different to goshawks. You won't get far trying to train a gos by juggling its weight alone. Those pointy winged things do seem to be very sensitive to being the correct weight and that is something I never really mastered.

Frankly, being of the old school, it is against my nature to rely on weight control. Sure, I use it as a check but mainly work on body language and an occasional pinch of the sternum (if I can find it!<g>).

As for always maintaining a bird at flying weight in case I lose a day's hawking, I don't believe this can be correct. The small hawks in particular need to have their condition (weight, if you must) oscillated over several days, so they get a gorge every few days, then a rest day, then a few days flying -- or they end up like a lot of the sparrowhawks on this forum.:(
There are inevitably times when, for one reason or another, one knows one will be unable to fly on the morrow. This is the time, if deemed necessary, to allow the hawk's weight to rise, but not so much that she can't be brought to the right condition the following day. For the serious falconer, the season is short enough without taking unnecessary breaks.
Actually, with correct management, it's perfectly possible to fly a spar on every available day, right through the season.

[Hardcore Hawker]

Agree entirely Mattspar i personally hate missing any available hunting days due to food intake the worst situation being lost your bird on a kill takes some time to locate bird has a football sized crop on arrival most people say oh well never mind but for me its a real ****er i feel like a caged animal if i cant get out and hunt the next day.

[MattSpar]

Agree entirely Mattspar i personally hate missing any available hunting days due to food intake the worst situation being lost your bird on a kill takes some time to locate bird has a football sized crop on arrival most people say oh well never mind but for me its a real ****er i feel like a caged animal if i cant get out and hunt the next day.

Mmmm. I know others have a more relaxed way of going about things, and that's just fine, but I was taught long ago to get birds going at the start of the season, get them entered as fast as possible, and then.... keep them at it, right through the season, so that at the end, you know you've done your best.


Incidentally, the flag at top right seems to show I hail from Abu Dhabi. I don't.

[Jack Merlin]

If my bird has flown well and made a kill of a difficult quarry after a long flight it will very soon have a football sized crop anyway!

As some here may know, I have been putting some of the old books into a more readable form. There are some real gems of wisdom under the cobwebs.

One author recommends cropping your bird up on difficult kills (e.g. tiercel gos on cock pheasant). That is such an obvious way to encourage a hawk I can't think why I haven't read it in a modern falconry book. If I don't fly the next day I think that's a small price to pay for a better hawk and more quality sport.

Can't define it, but I am looking for a bit more than just logging up more kills!<g>

[MattSpar]

If my bird has flown well and made a kill of a difficult quarry after a long flight it will very soon have a football sized crop anyway!

As some here may know, I have been putting some of the old books into a more readable form. There are some real gems of wisdom under the cobwebs.

One author recommends cropping your bird up on difficult kills (e.g. tiercel gos on cock pheasant). That is such an obvious way to encourage a hawk I can't think why I haven't read it in a modern falconry book. If I don't fly the next day I think that's a small price to pay for a better hawk and more quality sport.

Can't define it, but I am looking for a bit more than just logging up more kills!<g>

Yes, I understand what you're saying. But what better way of getting that "bit more" than by daily flying throughout the season? It's not all about kills, but a bird well flown every possible day will accumulate these. As for feeding up on kills after difficult flights, I don't see that one has to allow his hawk to stuff herself silly (which I presume is what you mean by, "Cropping up"). A normal ration, eaten from freshly caught, warm quarry is reward enough by my reckoning. Still, we each have our own methods, do we not?

[GosFlyer]

it seems that once a falconer has learnt to read a bird, its characteristics, its behaviour, its style of hunting etc we seem to not notice the skill we have and so often forget to explain it to beginners, thats something you cant get out of a book.

very true.:rolleyes:

[Coedhirion]

Very cunfusing... glad I'm not a novice reading this thread, there are 2 completely opposite schools of thought going on here..at least.
Personally I almost never feed up on a kill, except the last of the season. If a bird takes its first , say.. pheasant, I help it take a nice tasty bit then off we go after more. The birds fly most days even if it is dodging the rain, they hunt, they kill, max in one day is 5 rabbits. They are fed to a weight that will bring them out at optimum hunting weight the next day. This amount varies a little according to the work done that day, the temperature expected that night and the time they will fly next day. For my MHH it is usualy about 2 to 2.5oz above his hunting weight, less on higher protein.
This MHH will kill at 2lbs+ but would I trust him..never.
He will fly real well at 1lb10.1/2oz and kill when you put quarry up, but tends to fly check. Drop him to 1lb 10.1/8oz and he will be off self hunting.
Fly him at 1lb 9.1/4oz and he is totally brilliant instant response switched on and like having him on an invisable elastic leash. Hunting from soar. smashing thro bramble or sitting for that seeming eternity waiting for that darn bunny to bolt from the ferret.
To me one is flying or false weight,& the other is hunting weight. If you dont just want to stroll in the country a couple of days a week, you need a fit hunting bird. (we were out from 11am to 4pm and bagged 4 rabbits with this little MHH, it rained and it was helish windy, he hid under my jacket thro the heaviest showers & adores the wind)
As for manning, I guess he gets that every day since he arrived, even in the moult I go in and sit and chat to him and he comes down and sits on my knee, so I would never have to reduce his weight to catch or man him, only to hunt with him.

[Falcon911]

In defence of Sycopaff, I once had a male Redtail that would only become sufficiently motivated (and fly at a much higher weight) to hunt if I cycled it's food/weight in a similar manner to the one he describes.....
OK, I couldn't fly it everyday because of this but basically didn't have a choice with this particular bird.
I also think it is good to give increased food/rest at times to something that you are asking to excercise hard otherwise it burns out.

Rgds
Andy