How clever?

[GDN]

The HH is meant to be the most intelligent bird of prey. Does any one have any information on how clever they are or know where is there is information on how intelligent they are.

I am just curious.

Cheers

[Bird_Dog]

Why don't we do a survey on this topic? Using the most common species to assess falconers' preception of comparative intelligence

What is the most intelligent bird in falconry?

Goshawk (large accipter)
Sparrow Hawk/Coopers/Sharp-Shinned (small accipter)
Red-Tailed Hawk
Harris HawK
Merlin (small falcon)
Peregrine (large falcon
Gyr (large falcon)
Saker (large falcon)
Golden Eagle

This is just a suggested list of species. Not sure how to create a survey in the forum???

-- BIRD_DOG

[Blaze]

Is the harris hawk more inteligent than the caracara?

[MattSpar]

The harris' may be the most intelligent, or it may be just adaptive behavior due to their social habit, giving the impression of greater intelligence. One thing's for sure, compared to many other bird species, ALL birds of prey are pretty dim.
LJ, if you read this, there's scope for your experience in behavioral study here.

[LeighJauncey]

Of course intelligence is a tricky thing to assign to any animals and its measurement is open to considerable debate. Generally truly social species are credited with intelligence as they need to cooperate. With raptors Harris' are certainly bright. Caracaras are also credited with at least as much if not more, particularly Striateds - possibly something to do with having to be more inventive and adaptable because of the harshness of their environment.

[Tr1gger]

I agree with LJ, living in groups shown some intelligence. However I would say in my opinion that the Harris' is very adaptable and smart but no where near the intelligence level of some bop.

[SakerYZF]

How on earth would you measure their intelligence though? Parrots, particularly the larger parrots like macaws and African greys are very intelligent this has only been proven through tests that are easy to replicate particular behaviours that are natural to the parrots in the wild; their intelligence is on par with the average 4 year old child.
Harris hawks have a huge capacity to learn from each other, and perhaps more of there behaviour is learnt rather than being instinctive?
It would be interesting to see how quick two first year female hh of the same age from the same clutch learnt in different environments.
One going to a home where there it hunts on its own or rather with its human teacher.
and the second going to a home flown in a cast with two very experienced adult Harris hawks .... I know who my money would be on.
It would be almost impossible to do any of this scientifically though as they would be flown in very different ways.
Perhaps the only way would be to train all these birds, Goshawks, Spars, HH, RTs etc…
And at least 100 of each… and keep all the data from each bird … anyone want to volunteer there life and money away?

[Bird_Dog]

Determining intelligence of any animal would result in arguement and counter argument over everything from the definition of intelligence to how it's measured. I'm interested in peoples' perceptions of their bird's intelligence not the actual intelligence. This would be a survey about people and the bases of their perceptions. Falconers use personality dimesions like intelligence in defining individual differences in birds. For example I've heard falconers say things like, "this is a stupid one... I'm gettin' a new bird next year." Basically falconers may argue one of two perspectives. The outcomes are based on training methods or based on quailites of the birds. It has been suggested that different areas of animal training place emphasize on one view more so than the other. Horse trainers are more concerned about heredity than training style. Dog trainers have developed numerous methods of training which are followed by advocates of that particular style almost religously. As falconers we trap wild birds and release them if they don't suit us or we captive rear birds with concepts of proven game hawks or hybridization. By understanding our perceptions of birds we might better understand how falconry compares with other traditional forms of animal training, and consequently what is true explantion of training success and failure.

Just some thoughts which I hope will help

-- BIRD_DOG

[LeighJauncey]

I don't think the research of Irene Pepperburg with 'Alex' (African Grey) is replicating any wild behavour - being able to count, recognise shapes, colours and the concept of size may be related to natural behavious but being able to verbalise it all in English isn't! It wouldn't be that difficult to test reasoning powers in BOP by devising tests to measure different aspects of intelligence. If no one else does it, give me 10 years 'til I retire and I'll have a go. I've done some tests with my African Grey and there's no doubt he streets ahead of many mammals, let alone other birds.

[Flying High]

i my opinion a Harris is not brighter then a cararcra but a red tail is brighter than a Harris. The reason i say this is because if my two Harris are sitting in a tree and you call them they will more than often fly through the tree to get to me (even if i don't have food and i am just calling the to follow on) my little male flys at 1lb 11 and a 1/2 oz so he is not hungry but my male red tail will take a little longer coming to my because he will jump from branch to branch until he had a clear view of me. now if that if not clever then what is, because my red tails have a perfect tail and my harries have a slightly damaged tail.

[Osiris]

This has turned out to be a great read. Nice, fresh topic.

When it comes to "how clever?" a bop is, how do people know. Harris' live and hunt in a family unit and learn to cooperate to one another, which in fact does show intelligence, but how much? What are the means to assess intelligence withing any animal let alone bops? Ravens i believe are extremely intelligent, some others may agree, some may not.

We all have our own views on what birds are intelligent or not. Peregrine Falcons can be classed intelligent. Any animal and bop can be classed intelligent when used generally?

Its like saying Tony Blair is intelligent :lol: Some people will agree other wont!! ;-)

Brilliant thread and i'll keep viewing :D

[Flying High]

You are so right. but Tony Blair is not intelligent but lick you said each to there own. What a good thread it really makes you think and the best thing about it is that there is no real answer. It has so made me think.
Good thread

[Pogue Mahone]

surely a birds intelligence is determined by the amount of input we put in whilst training them for the purpose we want from them,its just some are a little smarter at the things weve tought them than others

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

I don’t know, but its a little bit like comparing a dog and a cat, who is most intelligent? Cats because of their ability to be "loners" and they train us more then we train them (if a dogs bark at the door we tell it to shut up and wait for its walk, when a cat scream at the door we let it out....who is training who?). A dog because it WILL wait and realize that it will soon be walked, ore the cat for knowing it will get let out??
Ore a dog who can be trained to find humans in snow avalanche and bring news papers etc. Ore a cat because it will not be trained but have a lazy easy life??
I think that it is the natural behavior that matters, if its a social animal it is in general easier to train then a antisocial one, but I still don’t think it have to do with actual intelligence. I would put a golden eagle, a harris and a gyr in the same intelligence level, but with completely different behaviors because of different natural habits and habitats.
I would also put a tape worm, a earth worm and a maggot in the same intelligence level as Tony Blair (sorry, no offence to worms)

[Pitbull]

if any of the species of BOP where intelligent i am sure they would stay well clear of us humans LOL:lol:

[Osiris]

if any of the species of BOP where intelligent i am sure they would stay well clear of us humans LOL:lol:

PMSL!! nice one

[anyone with flash mx experience please view: http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=8614]

LOL !!! :lol: :roll: :rolleyes:

[Flying High]

if any of the species of BOP where intelligent i am sure they would stay well clear of us humans LOL:lol:

you have hit the nail on the head. It is up to us to treat our birds right, because at the end of the day they have not chosen to be in captivity

[Osiris]

you have hit the nail on the head. It is up to us to treat our birds right, because at the end of the day they have not chosen to be in captivity

V.true FH but he was taking the mick

[Fawkes]

FH, how can you say that bop that we fly have not chosen to be in captivity? Everytime we let them loose they choose to come back, and so choose to remain with us - "in captivity". There is nothing stopping them from simply taking off and fending for themselves in the wild, especially if they are trapped birds.

[OutFlying]

FH, how can you say that bop that we fly have not chosen to be in captivity? Everytime we let them loose they choose to come back, and so choose to remain with us - "in captivity". There is nothing stopping them from simply taking off and fending for themselves in the wild, especially if they are trapped birds.

Training and weight management ensure they come back not "a genuine love of you".

Feed it up to top weight, reduce contact time - open the aviary door and watch what happens...............

[Darren]

Training and weight management ensure they come back not "a genuine love of you".
Feed it up to top weight, reduce contact time - open the aviary door and watch what happens...............

OutFlying has got it right:supz: ....just try & fly your bird a couple of ounces over flyin/hunting weight & it will take the ****:twisted: & come to you when it wants or it will just ****** off...i have seen it happen & then spend an hour or longer tracking it & swinging lure fully loaded like a mad man:rolleyes:

[Flying High]

OutFlying has got it right:supz: ....just try & fly your bird a couple of ounces over flyin/hunting weight & it will take the ****:twisted: & come to you when it wants or it will just ****** off...i have seen it happen & then spend an hour or longer tracking it & swinging lure fully loaded like a mad man:rolleyes:

Two of the birds i fly are a one and a half year old male harris and a five year old male saker. My male saker can fly in a demo then get fed up on about 5c and then an hour later he will fly again, this is at fat weight and he has never flown of. The male Harris can do the same. i can also hunt him catch a rabbit let him eat on it (so he looks like he a swallowed a tennis ball) and he will still be will to fly and hunt after. He flys at 1lb 11 and a 1/2 oz and is very fat at that.
I fly all my birds that way. always have and always will and touch wood i have never lost a bird.

[HarrisHawk.1.]

The HH is meant to be the most intelligent bird of prey. Does any one have any information on how clever they are or know where is there is information on how intelligent they are.

I am just curious.

Cheers
my harris was in his mews and i went to get him out and he was free flying
what he had done was undone the knot on the leash
lol now thats clever (falconery knot)

[SycoPaff]

i will always say that it there is not much difference in the intellegence of birds, if any, from harris to common buzzard! all the same!
the only difference is motivation, interest in a way! harris' learn fast because they live in packs and learn quicker to trust you, whereas a gos for instence is very solitary and is a dam sight more scared of you at first, no interest! lots of time and patients and ANY species of raptor will love you like an imprint!

[GDN]

This has raised a lot of interesting points. The big 1 is how do you measure intelligence in a bird. By how quick it adapts to you or by how quick it learns to do what you want it to do. I don't think this is very accurate. This is affected by time and also by a persons expertise with that type of bird.

I suppose the best way would be to put practical tests in an aviary and let the bird work it out for a food reward. Knowing BoPs there is always the risk that they just go nuts trying to get the food. I don't think it can be worked out through training and how quick they learn to work with people because of the diverse nature of BoP.

I have worked with a few HH who can undo or have undone knots. Not sure if this shows intelligence or if it just shows that HH are just curious.

[LeighJauncey]

I think I remember that Ronald Stevens' famous Gyrkin could undo at least two knots and would always return home if he disappeared on a flight.

One point though - how intelligent is a bird that bates more than twice? Is there some relationship in intelligent animals being able to suppress 'instinctive' behaviours in the light of something learned?

As to working for food reward - it's one of only three basic drives that dictate the behaviour of any animal. If you want to see an animal's best performance then food is always going to be a good starting point, as of course we all know.

[Fawkes]

I suppose the best way would be to put practical tests in an aviary and let the bird work it out for a food reward.

I know they've done this with crows and ravens (thought to be among the smartest birds). There's a crow that, given a cup of food in a tube and a wire, quickly made a hook with the wire to get the cup out. And she did it repeatedly.

I'm not sure raptors are all that intelligent, but some equivalent tests would be intriguing.

[GDN]

I have heard of the crow making and using the wire hook to get food.

I don't think for a minute that raptors are as intelligent as a crows but it would be good to try and give them some tests to see what they can work out.

Something to think about.

[OutFlying]

Too busy hunting with them to find out :rolleyes:

[Tim Laycock]

I have never had a bird successfully undo a falconers knot!

Either all my hawks are and have been as thick as **** or my knots were tied correctly!!

Draw your own conclusions!

[Barbary Boy]

my harris was in his mews and i went to get him out and he was free flying
what he had done was undone the knot on the leash
lol now thats clever (falconery knot)
the only bird thats ever untied a falconers knot(2)with me was a male h/hawk.

[MattSpar]

One point though - how intelligent is a bird that bates more than twice?....

....or stoops repeatedly at a swung lure without cottoning on to the fact that if it just goes and sits on a fence post, it will still get fed?

[HunterPaul]

once had a bird fhh that could play chess...wasnt as clever as it thought though as it only beat me 2 out of 5 games.....

[Graham Stuart]

my barn owl plays monopoly with us, well he fly's on the board and steals the money, must be scottish for sure:wink:

[HunterPaul]

my barn owl plays monopoly with us, well he fly's on the board and steals the money, must be scottish for sure:wink:
do you argue with it whos gonna be the sports car....

[Graham Stuart]

im a plastic lizard at the moment cause he stole all the ****ing metal players:D

[MattSpar]

once had a bird fhh that could play chess...wasnt as clever as it thought though as it only beat me 2 out of 5 games.....


Well my tiercel fills out my tax returns, so there.

[HunterPaul]

Well my tiercel fills out my tax returns, so there.
how much do you want for it.... my bird used to sort out my tax...but the bitch ****ed off to america...never to be seen again.

[MattSpar]

Hmmmm.... I too once had a bird with unfortunate migratory tendencies. Also prone to self-hunting. Has now found other unfortunate "quarry".