Lantra Basic Bird Handling Course

[Jarreth]

Next year will see the introduction of a land based nationally recongnised qualification in Bird of Prey Husbandry and Basic Bird of Prey Handling.

The course will be modular and mainly practical, so that people can just do the part that is relevent to them.

It's designed so that everyone has access to it, even if they are not rolling in cash, it will include owls, and if there is someone who just wants to look after an injured bird (I really don't want to get into the ethics of this bit) in an aviary, it will be possible to take a course, to ensure it's quality of life.

Covers up to flying free. And the planned launch date upto now is the Falconers Fair. What do you think everyone, would it have everyones support?

If there has already been a thread about this, sorry I missed it.

[Ben C]

This is in The Falconer & Raptor Conservation Mag..................I was under the impression that Adrian Hallgarth (Varmint) ran a working group.


Jareth: Have you any paperwork that this working party has produced?


regards

Ben

[Jarreth]

Hi Ben I have sent you a private message. I'm now going out on the raz.

[Jarreth]

What does everyone think about this?

[Ben C]

It is a total no-brainer: This is the most forward thinking, relevent idea for a LONG time..........Those who are proffessional falconers are the best to know what we need.......well done Adrian and the rest of the crew.......................you get my vote...........:supz: :heart: :supz: :heart:

[Varmint]

The First accessors courses for the new LANTRA based qualification are being held at the end of this month.

A list of qualified accesors will be published and a reasonable geographical spread of accesors will mean that interseted parties will be able to become recognised. This qualification, although very basic will prove to anyone in authority or otherwise that you are a competent person capable of keeping a Captive BOP alive.

It is designed in principle to tackle the new small animal Bill, and means that if challenged you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that you are capable of looking after the bird in your care!

It will not however, gauge your abilities as a Falconer/Austringer.

[Adam Barrett]

How do you apply to get on the course Adrian mate?
Also are there any restrictions in place meaning certain people are not eligible to attend the course?
Thanks
Adam

[Hawkmaster]

What are the costs involved?

[Finnish]

Varmint where are these courses going to be held mate.

[Jarreth]

It works like this.

There are external verifiers who will assess the suitability of a centre or individual wishing to be an assessor, anyone can be an assessor because the external verifier makes sure everyone is assessing to the same standard nationally.

People wont have to go to a centre to do the course if they do not wish, they could have a friend who is a falconer teach them the standards required to pass the course. But they must go to a qualified assessor for assessing to get the nationally recognised qualification.

This means that anyone passing the course, has to have reached the same standard of skill level as anyone else in the country, but an individuals access to the course is not restricted by cost, people can go to a centre and pay for the course and pay thier cost, which may include the assessment as well, if the centre is a qualifying centre, or they can go to a mate who is willing to teach and then just pay to be assessed.

And of course if someone gets the course notes and there will be many different access routes to this, and then reaches the standard required, they do not have to be assessed, or get the qualification, but they will be able to handle keep and look after a bird in a suitable and safe manner, and that is what we all want.

Different styles of tying a falconers knot will be irrelevent as long as the candidate can show they can tie a correct falconers knot.

It will be fantastic for all the new comers to the sport who are always asking about aviary design and other very basic questions, it covers every thing up to flying free. It does not teach entering and hunting, there are reasons for this.

As for the cost of the course, that hasn't be decided yet.

Varmint did set up the working group but has had very little input on the design and setting up of the course.

[Hawkmaster]

OK so how does one become an assessor?

[Jarreth]

Adam

You will be able to do the course any where, either at the nearest centre (They may qualify you as well so it might be worth travelling.) or learn from the neares person who will teach you then just travel to get your qualification.

[Stewigan]

sorry this mite sound thick, so does this mean that anyone whose already got a bird has to have this qualification to keep their bird and to prove there capable or is it for newbies waiting to get birds and learning?

[Jarreth]

Hawkmaster to become an assessor all you have to do is apply to Lantra.

A working group will be set up which will be Lantra controlled, but will be made up of experienced falconers to make sure that applying assessors will have facilities and are suitable to qualify candidates.

They will visit you at your set up, and make sure you have the facilities to do what you are applying to do. (If you are requesting to be able to run assessment days where you 10 candidates at one time, they will make sure you have the facilities to cope with that. If you are applying to do 1 at a time your facilities can be much smaller.) Once passed this.

You then go on a Lantra course to qualify you to assess. This is not a course on how to be a falconer. It is how to assess candidate and be satified that they reach the required standard.

Thats it

[Jarreth]

Hi Stewigan

This is a complete unknown territory in this country at the moment. So we are expecting a lot more questions than that one. We'd much prefer that people asked.

It's for both, anyone who wants to take it can. Hawkmaster could if he wanted to, obviously he doesn't need to but if he wanted the piece of paper theres nothing to say he couldn't.

There are many different positive reasons for introducing the qualification, the first is the animal welfare bill, this will satisfy duty of care for keeping birds of prey, including owls. At some point soon DEFRA would impose some sort of course and it would have been put to the RSPCA and RSPB to do it and they are clueless about falconry and keeping BOP and it would of been a disaster. If falconry produces the course first, it will be accepted by DEFRA as the standard and we are then to a degree taking control of our own destiny.

It prevents anti's from slurring falconry by saying we don't care for our birds, or saying that falconry doesn't make provision for new comers, and that birds are coming to harm at their hands. And it also take falconry a few steps away from being seen as a 'Blood Sport', by adding a nationally recognised qualification, it certainly gives falconry a more credible air to someone who is looking at it from the outside.

[Jarreth]

Although the course has been initially designed and produced by a few, Lantra will invited comment from anyone who would like to have input. It isn't ready for general release as a draft yet, but will be in about four weeks or so and then you will be able to contact Lantra and ask for a copy and put your suggestions to them.

Owl people please do get involved, this is as much about you as about falconers. The course was deliberately designed to include owls, I know I fought for it. It is in modular fashion so owl keepers who don't fly their birds could stop at the relevent point, and apply for their assessment for BOP husbandry. However expect your assessor to actively encourage you to carry on and learn to fly your owl, as this is going to be seen as one of the positives about having access to people who keep owls in aviaries alone, you will be encouraged to take them out and fly them.

[Jarreth]

I will post Lantras contact details and how to get a copy of the draft qualification as soon as it is ready, so you can look it over and tell us if you think it could be improved in any way.

[Jarreth]

Stewigan, There will not be any requirement for people who already have their bird to take the course to keep it, this is an optional nationally recognised qualification.

It is possible however that if licence to own ever came back it DEFRA might make it a requirement to anyone who hasn't already got birds, before they are issued with a licence.

Sorry I didn't read your question properly, I'M THE ONE WHO IS THICK! Hope this answers you

[Hawkmaster]

Thanks for that, where you say "A working group will be set up which will be Lantra controlled, but will be made up of experienced falconers to make sure that applying assessors will have facilities and are suitable to qualify candidates."

Do you how they will qualify, by age, the birds they have flown or years under the belt? Will they not need to be more experienced than the applying assessor?

You also say:
They will visit you at your set up, and make sure you have the facilities to do what you are applying to do.
and
You then go on a Lantra course to qualify you to assess. This is not a course on how to be a falconer. It is how to assess candidate and be satisfied that they reach the required standard.

I currently have a City & Guilds 7407 to teach and give lectures up to a university level, so surely all that is already covered? Why would I need it? I am sure all will agree with me that C & G is held in more esteem than Lantra the world over.

So sell it to me. . . Please do not get me wrong I am only interested:yawinkle:

[Tr1gger]

What kind of limits would there be for example would thier be an age limit on who could take this assesment?

[Pitbull]

Sorry but unless it was a Nationally recognised qualification and even then i feel a certain few have found a way to make money, dont get me wrong i dont expect anything for nothing.

[Tanith]

I think that this has to be step in the right direction and It shows we are putting our house in order.

Any qualification has to be a good thing, surely.

[Hawkmaster]

I think that this has to be step in the right direction and It shows we are putting our house in order.

Any qualification has to be a good thing, surely.

True, but a step toward what? That your assessor has the facilities to teach you? Well if I pitched up at a dudes house I am sure I will be able to assess if I can trust them or not after a short while. I will not want . . . aaaahhhh can't be bothered, sorry not you, just babbling and I would like to know more, because it can be good, or just nothing at all?:rolleyes:

[Jarreth]

Thanks for that, where you say "A working group will be set up which will be Lantra controlled, but will be made up of experienced falconers to make sure that applying assessors will have facilities and are suitable to qualify candidates."

Do you how they will qualify, by age, the birds they have flown or years under the belt? Will they not need to be more experienced than the applying assessor?

You also say:
They will visit you at your set up, and make sure you have the facilities to do what you are applying to do.
and
You then go on a Lantra course to qualify you to assess. This is not a course on how to be a falconer. It is how to assess candidate and be satisfied that they reach the required standard.

I currently have a City & Guilds 7407 to teach and give lectures up to a university level, so surely all that is already covered? Why would I need it? I am sure all will agree with me that C & G is held in more esteem than Lantra the world over.

So sell it to me. . . Please do not get me wrong I am only interested:yawinkle:

All valid questions m8

I imagine there will be many falconers apply to sit on the committee to assess the suitability of assessors and and their facilities, and would hope all the factors you suggested were taken into consideration along with the ability to give the time committment, and the best candidates chosen out of them.

I don't think they would have to be more experienced, maybe only as experienced, or experienced enough to recognise that a applicant who is asking to run assessment days for 25 people at a time out of a dog kennel, with no hygiene facilities, with one bird and speaks no english, maybe isn't going to be the best assessor, there is alot of common sense involved in it. lol
lol

Sorry I'm laughing now, I laugh at myself alot, I like joining in. That is obviously seriously exagerated. I would seriously expect the committee will to made up a group of individuals who are experienced, and have a broad understanding of flying birds, and can look at someones set up and know whether it is suitable or not.

External Verifiers and the working committee will have different roles, the working committee assess whether someone has suitable facilities to assess and the Verifier makes sure they assess to the same national standard as everyone else.

To be honest m8 I fly birds, I'm not a lecturer and wouldn't really be able to make an educated comparison between City & Guilds and Lantra, but I suspect you are probably right, City & Guild is probably a more recognised qualification, but I'm not sure whether this is just because Lantra is purely land based or not, and City & Guilds more academic and business. I honestly couldn't say.

Again this is not an educated statement and I could be wrong, but I think the qualification to teach and to assess are different, I know that there is one person on the working committee who in previous employment used to assess and is qualified to do so at a high level, I think he may be going apply to be an external verifier.

What I will do tomorrow is ring Lantra ask and find out, I will post you to let you know

[Jarreth]

Hawkmaster

You are already obviously very qualified to teach. Do you think you would be interested in being an assessor, verifier or on the working committee

The course enables you to qualify someone else, assess them and give them a qualification. I think it is only a day course. But I will check and post back tomorrow. Alot still has to be decided and a workable system put in place, your input would be appreciated

[Jarreth]

I think maybe I haven't been very clear, To obtain a Lantra qualification, which is nationally recoginsed Pit Bull.

A would be falconer can take a course anywhere or just learn as they go along with a mentor, just as it is now, nothing there will change, and they only have to do it once, if they are smart enough they could learn on their own from book and a video if they want.

But to get the Lantra qualification in Basic Bird management, they would then have to go through an assessment process which is mainly practical, it is a modular equivalent to an exam.

Developing the qualification isn't about influencing how mentors and centres teach falconry, it's about assessing whether the candidate has reached the required national standard to pass an assessment at which point they will be skillfull enough, to know how to look after a BOP without causing it harm.

ie: Tell me the importance of the choosing the correct equipment, and select the correct equipment for a Sparrowhawk. And if they can explain the correct relevence and pick out the correct equipment. then they pass that particular part of the assessment. If they can't they don't.

How it is taught to them is down to their mentor, or centre.


The assessment course for the falconer is just to teach you how to assess to the same national standard as everyone else, so you can be qualified to qualify.

It is important everyone understands that this qualification will not prevent anyone who does courses now from carrying on just the way they are. This won't affect you, unless you want to be able to give out the qualification as well and then you will need to go on a course to assess, unless you already have done that course at sometime in your life.

[Jarreth]

thats prety much what i was thinking the original idea was sound just seems a little watered down now

also are there any plans to extend this so the so called pro's would need some qualification to do what they do be it breeding or runing a center

now i know im a pesimestic sod but it seems that we now have a situation where a newbie trying to learn all they can will atend a good couse at a center then do the lantra course but learn nothing he or she didnt already learn at the center

and all thats acheved is somone made a few quid teaching a course that actuly taught very little


i may be wrong and am happy to be corrected


Andy......


Your absolutely right Andy, they won't learn anything they didn't learn on a good course, because they are not being taught again, they are just being assessed that what the have been taught has gone into their head, and that when they are let loose with a bird on their own as so many of them seem to be now, that the can do right by it and keep it healthy.

There are no plans to extend the course beyond flying free, It is possible that a breeding modular could be added eventually, but not running a centre, Zoo licencing is the qualification for that, and the ethical review process will take care of the welfare bill from that side.

[Jarreth]

The best way I can describe it to you is it's like a driving test.

It's up to you whether you just teach, or whether you teach and assess.

If you want to assess become an assessor. There is no limit on how many there are in the country.

There will be an age limit of course there will, but it will probably be 18. That is the legal coming of age.

I'm sure you will all agree that there are some younger falconers, who might have been flying bird since they were kids and are great falconers and some older one's who aren't so great, and vise versa.

[BHawk]

some education is better than none, it goes towards the apprenticeship system in america, that would be useful here if you had to do this scheme before getting a bird

[Jarreth]

There is alot to this and it is difficult to explain it properly this way. If anyone is interested and wants more info, drop me a private message with your contact details and I will ring you, and tell you anything you want to know.

[Jarreth]

some education is better than none, it goes towards the apprenticeship system in america, that would be useful here if you had to do this scheme before getting a bird

It is forseen in the oracle that it won't be many years before DEFRA start muttering about possession licence again.

Any then it probably will be a condition that anyone who doesn't already have birds must take the exam first.

It was set up so the bloody RSPCA didn't design one, you can imagine, how **** that would have been.

If falconry already has one in place DEFRA will just take it as the 'Industry Standard'

[BHawk]

would there be enough placements to cover newcomers to the sport?

[Jarreth]

This is where the Lantra working committee needs to come in, I have spend hours pondering this particular difficulty. The sensible solution seems to be to have a permanent committee of falconers with good broad based knowledge who could visit someone who is applying to be an assessor and check the system out, you don't have to have a centre to be an assessor.

So the circumstances for each one are going to be different and must be taken on their own merit.

Say for example Andy you wanted to be an assessor, but didn't want to do it at any set place you wanted to go around to the home of the candidates and assess them there, all you would need to do then is apply, informing the committee of your intended method, and go on an assessors course, because you aren't teaching, so don't need to prove you can fly a gos hawk at night, with no lamp and with your hands tied behind your back, though if you can, I really would love to see it and I'd buy you a drink afterwards lol. You would need to know what a falconers knot looked like and you would need to be able to read so you know if the candidate has told you everything that is in your assessors notes, to be able to tick each relevent box. And therefore prove the muppet before you is competant.

I feel bad that I have denied you the soap box, er..............How about reality TV fancy a rant about that?

[Jarreth]

would there be enough placements to cover newcomers to the sport?


There would be enough assessors to assess, yes. They would have to get their instruction from somewhere else. I imagine alot of centres will apply to be assessors as well because it could be attractive to a newcomer to do eveything in one place, do a course and be assessed as you are going along, kind of thing.

In order to pilot the draft course, the first assessor training day in this Friday and next Tuesday. There was really more interest than was needed straight or could be coped with in the first instance, after those 2 days there will be 12 assessors. The draft can be tested amended and sent out to the falconers out there who would like to pass comment, amended again and then tested again then hopefully launched at the Falconers Fair.

[BHawk]

then they seemed to have covered everything so all we can do is sit back and see what the outcome is

[Jarreth]

then they seemed to have covered everything so all we can do is sit back and see what the outcome is

If you would like a copy of the draft when it is ready for release, Leave your address in my message box and I will send you one out, then you can look it over and say whether you think it can be improved, before it get launched.

[Jarreth]

I think that this has to be step in the right direction and It shows we are putting our house in order.

Any qualification has to be a good thing, surely.

This is a very good point

[BHawk]

cheers jarreth:D

[Falconry Equipment International]

Couple of Questions Jarreth. Are you on the working committee? what actually does LAntra stand for? If you have been flying BOP for 40 yrs odd & make your living from giving courses etc doe you have to be asessed & if so by whom?

[Jarreth]

Couple of Questions Jarreth. Are you on the working committee? what actually does LAntra stand for? If you have been flying BOP for 40 yrs odd & make your living from giving courses etc doe you have to be asessed & if so by whom?


Hi Screaming Jay

Thanks for your interest m8.

Yes I am on the working comittee. Lantra are qualifying body who design qualifications for the land based sector agriculture included.

No one has to take the assessment at all it is purely optional, although if DEFRA ever mutters again about possession licence those who don't already have birds might have to take it before they can get a licence.

No the length of time you have been flying and doing courses is not the issue here, there is nothing going to happen to stop you or change how you do courses. And noone is going to suggest you to take a course or assessment to see whether you are competant to teach falconry.

If you want to be an assessor so that you can hand your course person a nationally recognised qualification at the end, then you do have to go on a course to be an assessor.

This course is not trying to change or tell you how to teach falconry to your students. It teaches you how to assess and what the national standard a student must reach to be considered to have passed the course. This ensures that a candidate sitting the assessment in London reaches exacty the same standard as one taking the assessment in Newcastle.

In effect it gives you the authority to mark your own students exam paper.

If you give courses and are an Lantra qualification assessor as well, then someone can come to you to do a course and take the assessment, and you can qualify them.

If your next door neighbour does course but isn't an assessor, they would do a course with him but then he might send his students to you to be assessed. Or the student may choose to do the assessment with another assessor somewhere else.

Someone could learn falconry from the old guy down the road and then go to a centre and sit the assessment. Or find an assessor who is willing to visit them at their home.

The course and the assessment are completely seperate. You are the teacher, Lantra is the assessment of your student to make sure they have learned what you have taught them and that they have reached an acceptable national standard, if they have then they are entitled to a qualification, to prove it. And we know their bird will survive their care.

[Barbary Boy]

who decides what the national standard is?

[Jarreth]

Hawkmaster

Sorry mate I did try to get the information I promised for you today.

I had to take the dog to a specialist in st helens and got stuck for ages in very slow moving traffic cause of a pile up, by the time I got back the guy I needed to talk to wasn't available.

Will get the info for sure tomorrow and post it.

[Barbary Boy]

hows the dog?

[Jarreth]

The working group and you.

Just leave some contact info in my message box and I will send you the first release draft as soon as it is ready, approx 4 weeks but I will keep you up dated.

It would on a basis where the assessor- you- asks a candidate to explain appropriate housing, and then you refer to your assessor notes which would have listed all the elements a candidate would be expected to know. Such as teathering when it is appropriate to do so when not, placement for weather, what size? floor covering, hygeine, equipment for size of bird. Design of aviary, the different netting mesh, bars, full roof half roof, perching it out, in relation to size of birds. And importantly explain the pros and cons of each, and how to reach the right decision for your bird. and on and on. You tick of the boxes when you are satisfied the know what they are talking about. If you can tick all the boxes they have passed that section.

It doesn't matter how the candidate ties a falconers note (I know 4 different ways to end up with exactly the same knot, and I'm sure there are people who know more). They pass if they have have produced a correct safe secure falconers knot. if they have teathered the bird to itself with a reef knot, gladly they fail

The standard is set by what is on the assessor notes, which initially has been done by us and is going to be check by anyone who wants to have input.

[Jarreth]

Not good

Sad really. He is allergic to everything even the air! and it looks like he is developing an allergic reaction to the only thing I can feed him which is minced meat and rice. Where we go from here is anyones guess, the dog is licking and chewing his own skin off, cause it itches so much

[Jarreth]

Other than that he is a great dog. It will be such a shame if I have to lose him just because of his skin! I certainly feel for people with ecxema it must be living hell

[Pitbull]

i think when money is involved it should be alot more than basic handling,

[Jarreth]

Hi Pitbull

I'm not entirely sure I know exactly what you mean to be honest, when you say when money is involved, but I'll do me best to answer your question, if I get it wrong though, just say and I will have another go.

The assessment is on a voluntary basis only so people don't have to pay to go on an assessment. And the course cost charged by centres, will only be changed if that centre chooses to assess as well. If someone doesn't want to pay for an assessment they would just need to go to a centre or individual who doesn't do the assessment part of things.

If what you mean is it would be better to include further into the training. The qualification was designed, for many reasons such as catering for the needs of newcomers to falconry, one listed by godess earlier and that is it shows DERFA, RSPCA, RSPB, the antis and anyone else looking on that we do care about our newcomers their birds and are making provision to meet their needs. And it also satisfies the Welfare Bill which is just coming through. And we know that anyone coming into the sport will also conform to the bill, which is why we will encourage them to take the assessment, because the standard has already been set.

Hopefully a national qualification at the end of it will encourage more people to take it, and therefore get the essential skills, we want them to have.

[Jarreth]

Pitbull

I will also send you a private message

[Pitbull]

cheers for that jarreth

[Jarreth]

I have contacted Lantra, and the general release for the first draft of the assessment will be just after new year. Again anyone who wants a copy leave a contact address in my private message box and I'll send you one, you can let us know what you would like to see altered or improved. The moree input we get the better it will be.

[Jarreth]

It is necessary to do a 1 day course in assessment unless you already have assessment qualifications.

To obtain full assessment qualifications, to assess anything by anyone takes about 4 weeks and can be very costly.

The version Lantra is doing for falconers will allow you to hand out qualifications in Lantras Bird of Prey Management Assessment only. Which is why it is only 1 day. This will also dramatically keep the cost of becoming an assessor down, making it more accessable to you all.

[Osiris]

Well... that was a good read i must say!

I for one, am all for it. We need something like this in our community. People will agree with me some wont. I'll PM you Jareth, my address so you can send me the draft. :D

Cheers

jamie