harris or redtail

[World.Hunters]

i have been told b a few people now that a red tail wouldnt make a bad bird for a beginner for me as it takes hares aswell as most of other quarry

wat do people think is best between harris and redtail

wat are pros and cons

thx

[Minty]

i have been told b a few people now that a red tail wouldnt make a bad bird for a beginner for me as it takes hares aswell as most of other quarry

wat do people think is best between harris and redtail

wat are pros and cons

thx


I am in no way qualified to comment but i can only tell you what experienced guys have told me and thats No way a Redtail. They are more difficult to keep as a first bird.
I am sure more will be a long to give you more detailed advice.

Mind you cracking looking birds !

[Pitbull]

i am sure there are other threads that have asked this same question.
Think of the quarry that you want to take, the time you have to fly. But if its hare you want to take then as said before you are better of with RT even though there are people that have taken hare with there HH most tend to stick away from them. but thats my thoughts you will get plent more i am sure

[Blaze]

Im sure i read in another thread that redtails take some getting fit....Correct me if im wrong lads but im sure i read it on here or in a book......So if you did get one you would have to put a lot of time into flying it to get it fit.......Other than that i dont know much about redtails....But i have been told by a friend that they can be very tempramental!

[Hawkmaster]

EHS please do not post the same thread several times, you are just making work for the mods. :supz:

[GM090158]

Both birds are suitable for a beginner, they both take time care and effort, both will take hare when fit and in condition, the red tail simply takes that little bit longer, patience is the key word with any bird, there is no short cut with either

[Juzzer]

hi.

i would say that a harris hawk is a better bird to start falconry with as it has such a forgiven nature as appose to the red tail,as a beginner YOU like the rest of us owning ur first bird will make mistakes and the harris will forgive these mistakes and get on with it as appose to the red wich needs in my oppinion more of an expierienced falconer to train them.

quarry,a female harris hawk will and is more than capable of catching hare but fitness is the key to success with any hawk and i emphesise this(spelling)
dont just think that getting a hawk will automaticly catch quarry it needs a lot of time and effort put into it to achieve these goals m8 as i say fitness is everything!!!!!!!!!!

hope this helps and i am sure if anyone thinks this is wrong they will correct me please do.:)

[Pitbull]

you have got plenty of time, Get in touch with a few people that fly HH and RT see how different they are. Try and get out there with them when hunting these are the best people to ask. Then the choice is yours.

[Blaze]

hi.

i would say that a harris hawk is a better bird to start falconry with as it has such a forgiven nature as appose to the red tail,as a beginner YOU like the rest of us owning ur first bird will make mistakes and the harris will forgive these mistakes and get on with it as appose to the red wich needs in my oppinion more of an expierienced falconer to train them.

quarry,a female harris hawk will and is more than capable of catching hare but fitness is the key to success with any hawk and i emphesise this(spelling)
dont just think that getting a hawk will automaticly catch quarry it needs a lot of time and effort put into it to achieve these goals m8 as i say fitness is everything!!!!!!!!!!

hope this helps and i am sure if anyone thinks this is wrong they will correct me please do.:)
Your spot on juzzer!..........Fitness is the key thing for the bird to be able to take quarry......You'v got to put the time into the bird for the bird to reward you in return!

[Ben C]

You can mess a Harris up Just as you can a RT, they may be forgiving but you can still make a bad job of it: They are both awesome animals. As long as you have the right mentor, the right land, time, effort, feeling and cash, then you'll be fine with either.

[Eragon]

hi.

i would say that a harris hawk is a better bird to start falconry with as it has such a forgiven nature as appose to the red tail,as a beginner YOU like the rest of us owning ur first bird will make mistakes and the harris will forgive these mistakes and get on with it as appose to the red wich needs in my oppinion more of an expierienced falconer to train them.

quarry,a female harris hawk will and is more than capable of catching hare but fitness is the key to success with any hawk and i emphesise this(spelling)
dont just think that getting a hawk will automaticly catch quarry it needs a lot of time and effort put into it to achieve these goals m8 as i say fitness is everything!!!!!!!!!!

hope this helps and i am sure if anyone thinks this is wrong they will correct me please do.:)

Over here in the US we are almost required to start with a redtail, there are 1 or 2 other birds but alot start with a redtail. they are very forgiving, and i belive that they are bigger than a HH, which means that you can make a few more mistakes. that is why most apprentices start off with a redtail. the redtail is harder to train, but a HH are almost train them selves (i've heard).
:-D so in my opinion start with a redtail because you will gain more experiance of training than with a HH :-D

[World.Hunters]

thx u have all been alot of help

sorry for posting question twice i dint meen to

thx again peeps

[MickeyDredd]

hi.

i would say that a harris hawk is a better bird to start falconry with as it has such a forgiven nature as appose to the red tail,as a beginner YOU like the rest of us owning ur first bird will make mistakes and the harris will forgive these mistakes and get on with it as appose to the red wich needs in my oppinion more of an expierienced falconer to train them.


The other side of the coin to this is that mistakes made with a RT will be punished by the hawk :evil: and therefore hopefully will be learned and not repeated by the austringer. It may well therefore make a better austringer of you, as the forgiving nature of the harris perhaps does not necessarily encourage and test people to "do things right"

It is more demanding training a RT than a HH but is hugely rewarding, and as others have said before on the forum if you can train a RT well you can train anything!!

[Tanith]

Hi Eragon,

The difference in the US is an apprentice will take a passage redtail who is already a proficient hunter.

[Ben C]

The other side of the coin to this is that mistakes made with a RT will be punished by the hawk :evil: and therefore hopefully will be learned and not repeated by the austringer. It may well therefore make a better austringer of you, as the forgiving nature of the harris perhaps does not necessarily encourage and test people to "do things right"

It is more demanding training a RT than a HH but is hugely rewarding, and as others have said before on the forum if you can train a RT well you can train anything!!


Having seen Mikes RT in action many many falconers on here will vouch for these words of wisdom.

(However HH are better mike you know that :supz: :supz: , just don't get all angry with me for saying so:cool: )

[Tanith]

Yeah me too.

Harris anyday.

[MickeyDredd]

Ben

As you know I'm a huge HH fan as well, but at the moment am unable to fly both MHH and FRT. EVERY time I fly the RT she never fails to impress me, last Sunday she hit a bunny after a 50 yard flight as it disappeared thru a stock fence. When i got there her head and one foot was thru the fence, the rest of her body was squashed against it and she held the rabbit in one foot as it was half way down the hole at the other side of the fence - awesome power and commitment.

Almost as impressive as the kill you saw Ben, although this time took a fence with her rather than an oak tree ;) :D :D

[HunterPaul]

the people in the states that are classed as beginers have far more experience than we do when classed as experienced over here so the american s argument is void in this matter....i love hhawks but a well trained fit red in my opinion is almost unstoppable and will go through concrete to acheive its evil goals ....i also agree with mickey d...a harris is not really forgiving ...it still ends up ******ed up in some way....the red will not allow this and if you want to learn get a red.... if you dont want to learn get a budgie.... i fly a harris but mine was given...
fly a harris if it suites your needs but not because its the easy option....if i had lots of hares on my land even though a fhh will take these without many probs ...id go for a red....

[Dave G]

if you want good hard flights at rabbit then a red is a good bird to start with as reds hit hard,if its a mixed bag of quarry rabbit, pheasant, duck then the harris is good to but must say not alot gets away from the red

[World.Hunters]

i fink im leening towards a male red tail

what is the going price for a male RT

[World.Hunters]

i looked at this site the people are very nice

it says "I would not recommend paying much more than half the going rate of a male Harris for a male Redtail."

is this about right

[FlameHairedFalconer]

Personally I think that the best bird for a beginner is still the kestrel. Its really not best for the kestrel, as if you make a mistake it dies, however you wont make that mistake again!! THIS IS A JOKE...YOU KNOW...HA HA!

The main difference between the harris and the redtail is that with the harris, as a beginner it is easy to fall into the trap of flying at too high a weight. A harris that is a touch too high will still fly to you and make half hearted attempts at quarry. A redtail that is too high will just ****** off and sit in a tree. On weight I think that RT's are tenacious hardy hawks that will give you a lifetime of good hawking.

Dont get a redtail if you want a harris or you'll end up overhawked.

Just a few of my many and random thoughts....

FHF

[Barbary Boy]

when your ready get what you fancy youll be fine with either. or something else?

[Pitbull]

price should not be the issue, quality, what was it fed, whats the breeder like, if you look hard enough you could probably get 1 for £50

[IAmTheWeasel]

Having flown both types of birds in question, I will say that the Harris is much more personable that the red, but at the same time, I think the red is much more serious if you will when out hunting. No if, ands or but's about their attitude when in the field. Red's are quite easy to train and hunt in my opinion and it will teach you "manners" when handling a BOP this size. In my honest opinion, I think Harris's are a bit too easy for the first timer as they will learn some lazy methods of handling the bird since they can get away with it. But when they go to get a nice big Gos next, they will be bleeding from every limb on their body if they try the same thing they do with a harris. A red is as steady as they come. Predictable, robust, strong and very resiliant to newbie's mistakes, disease and sloppy weight control won't kill it. Best of all, it can be flown at just about anything bar a few extreeme's. They crash cover like they where shot out of a cannon, and they take no prisoners. I have found that my Harris is much more selective of the conditions of the flight. I always think of the Red Tail as a B-52 Bomber of a bird, brute force and the Harris is more of a fighter/bomber, a little more nimble in it's attack. I guess one of the major questions to ask yourself, is what do you plan to fly the bird on? Birds only? then get a harris. Bunnies only, then go for the red or the Harris. Hare and bunnies, go for the red. Just my opinions....

[Maxwell]

EHS - what's the fascination with Hare... is this yr only quarry?

[Stephen]

i have never flown a red tail but i dont think there is anything more rewarding
than watching a cast of harrises working together to get a treerat out of a dray or working a rabbit out of cover

[HunterPaul]

Having flown both types of birds in question, I will say that the Harris is much more personable that the red, but at the same time, I think the red is much more serious if you will when out hunting. No if, ands or but's about their attitude when in the field. Red's are quite easy to train and hunt in my opinion and it will teach you "manners" when handling a BOP this size. In my honest opinion, I think Harris's are a bit too easy for the first timer as they will learn some lazy methods of handling the bird since they can get away with it. But when they go to get a nice big Gos next, they will be bleeding from every limb on their body if they try the same thing they do with a harris. A red is as steady as they come. Predictable, robust, strong and very resiliant to newbie's mistakes, disease and sloppy weight control won't kill it. Best of all, it can be flown at just about anything bar a few extreeme's. They crash cover like they where shot out of a cannon, and they take no prisoners. I have found that my Harris is much more selective of the conditions of the flight. I always think of the Red Tail as a B-52 Bomber of a bird, brute force and the Harris is more of a fighter/bomber, a little more nimble in it's attack. I guess one of the major questions to ask yourself, is what do you plan to fly the bird on? Birds only? then get a harris. Bunnies only, then go for the red or the Harris. Hare and bunnies, go for the red. Just my opinions....
great post....i think we should get away from this the harris is a good beginers bird...in fact its a terrible bird for a beginner ...as it will let the beginner get away with massive mistakes ... the harris is in fact a good bird for an experienced falconer as it needs some one with a good knowledge of birds to get the best from it...which should be every falconers goal... slack handeling and bad weight management...will lead to a slack and sad bird....in a red...it will lead to blood and sitting under trees on very cold frosty mornings...but you will learn or reap the rewards....

[MickeyDredd]

i have never flown a red tail but i dont think there is anything more rewarding
than watching a cast of harrises working together to get a treerat out of a dray or working a rabbit out of cover

Get yourself a FRT and watch in awe the sheer mad commitment and power they possess!

ps i'm a harris fan too. :yawinkle:

[Stephen]

maybe one day no more room at the inn m8

[Pitbull]

I want to learn so getting a RT

[MickeyDredd]

I want to learn so getting a RT

What, learn to bleed? :lol: :lol:

[World.Hunters]

a few month ago there was a lot of rabbits we was having 15 runs a night wiv lurcher
but last time i went out about 2-3 runs mixy has killed about %65 of rabbits already

but hares are good down hare aswell and no mater wat time u go out u see a couple and lamping the hares down here is good aswell

pit bull wat u meen £50 was that for a kestrel i expect to pay more for a MRT

[HunterPaul]

now theres an idea plan on a bird then lamp all your quarry before it arrives....

[FlameHairedFalconer]

i fink im leening towards a male red tail

what is the going price for a male RT

I'd go for a female as your first hawk.

I have specifically bought small male harrises before but then I have experience of weight control in a variety of small hawks and falcons. Also I am a weak girly so am unable to hold more than 1lb 8oz on my fist without crying ;)

So unless you have a very specific reason for wanting the smaller hawk (i.e the male) there is no reason why you should not go for the larger female and increase your quarry range into the bargain.

FHF

[World.Hunters]

i have been lamping up there for years all of my family have lamped it.........

theres enought quarry for the bird aswell as my dog can actually fly and catch fesants ect YET........... few more red bull might just do it

[Blaze]

I'd go for a female as your first hawk.

I have specifically bought small male harrises before but then I have experience of weight control in a variety of small hawks and falcons. Also I am a weak girly so am unable to hold more than 1lb 8oz on my fist without crying ;)

So unless you have a very specific reason for wanting the smaller hawk (i.e the male) there is no reason why you should not go for the larger female and increase your quarry range into the bargain.

FHF
1lb 8oz worth...Is more than enough for a women to handle in her fist!.....lol..:oops:

[JFSeaman]

if you want good hard flights at rabbit then a red is a good bird to start with as reds hit hard,if its a mixed bag of quarry rabbit, pheasant, duck then the harris is good to but must say not alot gets away from the red

I have a mate with a MRT. Someone poached out his rabbit land leaving only feather. The MRT takes them all regularly.

Mixed bag argument is void.

[JFSeaman]

great post....i think we should get away from this the harris is a good beginers bird...in fact its a terrible bird for a beginner ...as it will let the beginner get away with massive mistakes ... the harris is in fact a good bird for an experienced falconer as it needs some one with a good knowledge of birds to get the best from it...which should be every falconers goal... slack handeling and bad weight management...will lead to a slack and sad bird....in a red...it will lead to blood and sitting under trees on very cold frosty mornings...but you will learn or reap the rewards....

I resemble that remark!

[Ninja-Jon]

So what do us newbies start with then for a first time BOP? Harris Hawks are not reccomended due to letting the newbie get away with massive mistakes Reds will sit in trees on cold frosty mornings Whats the ideal BOP then for a newbie. We all got to start somewhere.

[Ben C]

HH for me everytime: So long as you don't use them as a stepping stone and give them your full and un-divided attention its a great hawk to start with for the whole of its natural life.........but then the same can be said for a RT......a gos etc etc.

As long as you have a good mentor, on tap, everyday for a year or so a MH or MRT is fine. As with everything, just prepare THOROUGHLY and you will be fine.

[FlameHairedFalconer]

HH for me everytime: So long as you don't use them as a stepping stone and give them your full and un-divided attention its a great hawk to start with for the whole of its natural life

Exactly! And DONT ever think 'I'll get a harris, its easy'!!

FHF

[SycoPaff]

bin some good posts on this one! and stupid ones! look, get any bird you like, but make sure you learn that trust is the key to a successful bird! if u man your bird thorally, feeding it to full everyday with months of very hard manning, and THEN fly your bird, you will be happy and your bird will be happy! but jus think, what did falconers do before harris'! native birds are the best! and no hybrids!!!!

[Ben C]

Sycopaff: Interesting, I have thought about this one a lot!

What native british hawk (bird) would you suggest for a total novice, and what particular old school methods would you reccomend?

[HunterPaul]

So what do us newbies start with then for a first time BOP? Harris Hawks are not reccomended due to letting the newbie get away with massive mistakes Reds will sit in trees on cold frosty mornings Whats the ideal BOP then for a newbie. We all got to start somewhere.
no matter what you get red harris gos ...treat it as if it cost 2000 pounds and as if it will keel over any second or **** off or nauil you...get a harris just dont make silly avoidable mistakes ...with that thinking in mind red or harris whatever suites your situation and personality...as you will do well with both...if you intend to **** around at it...take up golf and do the bird a favour... see for me sking what is best for a beginner is almost resigning yourself to the fact that you are gonna be slack ..and you want the most forgiving bird... think of it as going into a world title fight,,...do you want a trainer who lets you go out on the **** at the weekends and eat kebabs ...or one who will get you up at 4 am for a run.... i know who id want when the day comes...

[Ninja-Jon]

No don't think i will be takeing it slack at all you think what ever you want mate not looking for a BOP either to make mistakes with wouldnt be spending a couple of thosand pounds on Mew's if i was ****ing about it.One minuit your saying a Harris is not a beginers bird then when asked for your opinion on a first time BOP you dont give a pacific bird you say i am ****ing about at it. Or you word as if i want a bird that will be forgiving in my opinion you twist the whole thing round try and make me look a **** and yourself a clever ****er

Reason i asked you what is reccomended for a newbie's first time BOP is not because i haven't got a clue or looking to make mistakes. In my opinion you like to think you know all the answers so i was waiting for your reply but no you twisted as norm to make me look as if i dont know what the **** i am on about...................

[Ninja-Jon]

Yea sorry about the languge...

[Ben C]

Ninja-Jon:

The worst thing in the world any newbie can do (certainly before) getting a hawk is to come onto these forums and ask for help. Not because you wont get it, but because you will get conflicting and contradictory views. It is not an exact science. I am not an expert but I didn't bother with ANY OTHER HELP in my first season other than that provided by my mentor. It really is the only way to go.

Another reason: You don't know who, how, why, how often and for how long people fly hawks on here. Many people seem to have a book on their laps when they post. The way I worked it out..........who posts pictures of good flying, if the hawks havn't got **** on their equipment and look in good nick and a lot of PM's. :supz: :goodman:

[HunterPaul]

No don't think i will be takeing it slack at all you think what ever you want mate not looking for a BOP either to make mistakes with wouldnt be spending a couple of thosand pounds on Mew's if i was ****ing about it.One minuit your saying a Harris is not a beginers bird then when asked for your opinion on a first time BOP you dont give a pacific bird you say i am ****ing about at it. Or you word as if i want a bird that will be forgiving in my opinion you twist the whole thing round try and make me look a **** and yourself a clever ****er

Reason i asked you what is reccomended for a newbie's first time BOP is not because i haven't got a clue or looking to make mistakes. In my opinion you like to think you know all the answers so i was waiting for your reply but no you twisted as norm to make me look as if i dont know what the **** i am on about...................
stuff your language mate ...i dont give a flying **** what you think of me....i was answering your question as a general...and i answered you as I would if we were face to face ...it was not...or intended to make you look a ******....when i said yourself I meant oneself....and if in my last post anybody disagrees with the fact that if you are well pre[pered and willing to go about it the right way ...there is nothing you cant fly as a first bird....also is there anybody out there will disagree with the fact that the harris suffers because it is classed as a beginners bird....when asked about answering neew peoples qeustions the other day ...i thought being sarky was out of the question....not being honest...and i dont sit with a book on my lap.... if you took my answer as a personal sleight on your character then that is your own down fall ...none was meant....this forum in my opinion is becoming a balls up....

[Ben C]

....and i dont sit with a book on my lap......

Didn't say you did. :confused: :!: :!: :!:

[Graham Stuart]

ooooooooo its handbags at dawn :lol:

[FlameHairedFalconer]

N-J - the best hawk for a beginner is the one that you have the land and the time for. The rest is personal preference. If you want a definitive opinion then ask one person and stick with that, if you are unable to make the choice yourself.

Asking this question on a public forum will only elicit 100's of personal opinions. Most of which will not be right for you personally. Actually none of which will be right for you personally, because only you can make that decision.

FHF

[Ninja-Jon]

Hi there FlameHairedFalconer thank you for your reply, I have made my mind up regards the BOP i will be requireing next year. What i wanted was HunterPaul to answer the question on a alternative BOP for a Beginner as he say's in is post's the Harris is not reccomended due to the fact it lets the beginner get away with to many mistakes So with him being an Expert thought he knows of a alternative BOP for a beginer. Wasn't asking because i carn't make up my mind my minds made up regards the BOP i will be getting..



Also thanks for your reply Ben C think i will bare that in mind before i post anything again M8 Thanks.............

[HunterPaul]

Didn't say you did. :confused: :!: :!: :!:
i was just saying that i dont sit with a book on my lap just in case I was who you were refering to..... and i dont see what would be wrong with that anyway as long as it answered the question asked...as a lot of people come on talking about getting a bird having never read a book.... it saves thenm the hastle of doing so..... ninja jon....i actually answered your question thinking you were posting on behalf of newbies in general ...and thought you were an already up and running falconer....so couldnt have possibly meant my post as a personal dig....this is by no means an apology.... and if anybody should be apologising it shopuld be you..... i dont think i am superior in any way to anybody on this forum in any respect to do with falconry... I am however much better in bed than most men....if you would like some hints and tips in this department then you are talking to the best....

[Addi]

pmsl .. and they u go lowering the tone as usual ! lol

[Ben C]

....and i dont see what would be wrong with that anyway as long as it answered the question asked.......


Ask away then paul I got loads of books on black sparrowhawks, Aplomados, Chickens, Grouse, emus, dodos etc etc :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[HunterPaul]

Ask away then paul I got loads of books on black sparrowhawks, Aplomados, Chickens, Grouse, emus, dodos etc etc :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
going out hunting now ....if i need to know anything about hunting my emu...youll be first on my list....oh and ninja jon...i trust the HP is an expert comment was you being sarky...lets not forget thats not allowed as people like you will go crying to the moderators ....but if its sarky you want ....now that i can play....

[Ninja-Jon]

Hey you check with any of the Mods never once in all the time been on here pm a mod regards anything so get your head from up your arse and be real.

[MickeyDredd]

Its not that the harris is not a good bird for a beginner, its more that as I'm sure most people on here would agree that it because of its "forgiving" nature that it is a hawk that can be taken on by someone without the requisite initial experience and knowledge and if it is lucky enough not to die thru neglect or starvation then it will still fly to the fist, hunt and catch stuff, etc.

The redtail will not allow such "slackness" or lack of knowledge in its training and will not respond as positively as the harris to such shortcomings, if the training is not done correctly it may well not fly to the fist or hunt.

Disclaimer : Please note that this post is not a criticism of anyone and I am not an expert.

ps And I thought I was the one with anger management problems :!:

[FlameHairedFalconer]

Hi there FlameHairedFalconer thank you for your reply, I have made my mind up regards the BOP i will be requireing next year. What i wanted was HunterPaul to answer the question on a alternative BOP for a Beginner as he say's in is post's the Harris is not reccomended due to the fact it lets the beginner get away with to many mistakes

Hmmm The thing is that at one time the kestrel was though of as the 'best' bird for a beginner, the reason being that if you killed it off you werent losing a valuable hunting hawk. Then it was the common buzzard, because people recognised that killing off kestrels wasnt really that sporting. The trouble with both of these hawks is that they dont really have the hunting ability that either a harris or a redtail does. And so they have now become the recommended hawks for beginners as they are a bit harder to kill off than a kestrel and will catch more than a buzzard.

However in calling any hawk a 'beginners' hawk will belie what can be achieved with they in experienced hands. Both kestrels and buzzards can and do hunt, after a fashion, in the right hands.

FHF

[HunterPaul]

Hey you check with any of the Mods never once in all the time been on here pm a mod regards anything so get your head from up your arse and be real.
i actually said people like you...read the post properly whinger jon.... and as far as having my head up my arse is concerned ...the company and conversation up there seems to be far superior and there seems to be less ***** up there than you are spouting....go buy yourself a eagle mate and then when you have just a little bit of experience ..then come and talk to me..... is this the way youd like me to rise to your bating....
i actually treat you with the contempt you deserve ...learn to speak the english language properly first and then maybe just maybe I could conduct some kind of civilised conversation with you.... you must have a massive chip on your shoulder to take everything I say as so personal...do you have a persecution complex my friend ...if so then I do apologise for bringing it to the fore....

[MattSpar]

and as far as having my head up my arse is concerned ......

Coincidentally, I once went out with a female contortionist. That happened to be her party-trick.

[HunterPaul]

Coincidentally, I once went out with a female contortionist. That happened to be her party-trick.
what sticking her head up my ass...i dont remember that but there are a lot of things from my past ive eradicated from my memory...if you have any pics they would be appreciated...

[MattSpar]

what sticking her head up my ass...i dont remember that but there are a lot of things from my past ive eradicated from my memory...if you have any pics they would be appreciated...

I believe the correct expression on this forum is.... PMSL !!

[Jester]

hmmmm think i will get the beer and popcorn ready and just settle in here :lol: