Sporting?

[Minty]

This is a similar post to recently but with a slight variation.
As a Newcomer to Falconry i have asked many questions on here and had some good answers which as a beginner in Falconry is in my view what you must do. Try and get as much info from Falconers and from the many books out there.

But there is one Question that always pops up with every falconer i have met and that is Flying your bird in a 'Sporting' manner.
We have had the Free V Fist debate but what is meant by a 'Sporting' manner.
Flying free is the birds Natural function to hunt surely but is this Sporting?
Using Ferrets is this Sporting?
Walking along Kicking up whilst bird on Fist?
Using a Dog?
Using the Wife?
Using the Girlfriend?
Using the Girlfriend and Wife at the same time?

Getting back to the serious note its not to do with terrain as open fields with warrens is ferret country but is that sporting standing there with bird on fist?
In the wild a bird would not drop a ferret down the hole would it?

I am not having a go at anyones opinion just that there are so many ideas of what is sporting. I met a Falconer who refuses to use ferrets and another who would never go without them.
A Falconer that will only get Forest for his Harris so he can run it free whilst he walks and leaves the Harris to do its natural hunting instinct on its own he does not kick or beat.
A Falconer that will only find vast open areas for his falcon again no beating just realeases from a great hight to wonder the land for any prey.

So are Aids Sporting?

'Sporting' What is that in Falconry.

[Hardcore Hawker]

Hi Minty just a quick reply, I think to many falconers put themselves before thier birds some kind of vanity i suppose but hawks and falcons do not understand sport and should be able to hunt what they hunt when they hunt how they want to hunt it, thats my opinion.

[Kanati]

i dont think the use of ferrets is sporting at all...but i'm not against it. Once the rabbit is 'Home' its a bit rude to make him wake up and start running...probably still half asleep. Apart from that I dont think any of the other things on your list are un-sporting. Rabbits that stay out to feed know they are at risk,(if they didn;t know this, they would not hide and run etc...) so they are playing the game they want to play. they are taking the risks...we are just trying to make them pay for it! :twisted:

my hawks are very sporting...they always shut their eyes and count to ten before giving chase ;)

[Heike]

This
So are Aids Sporting?

'Sporting' What is that in Falconry.

Is that like hunting foxes with no hounds,
shooting pheasants with no beaters & dogs and never rearing and releasing game,
netting holes & waiting for rabbits to bolt with no ferret,
Waiting in a grouse butt for grouse to happen to fly over you,

All lines of field sport involve more than one element to achieve the goal,

Personally i wouldnt like to go out with my hh and not assist in flushing game, by dog or ferret, i think you would get one bored bird and they would think of you as a pretty naff hunting partner.

[MickeyDredd]

Minty

Not easy to answer quickly but in terms of the harris hawk which in many instances in the wild will hunt collectively, the ferret/dog/human will take the place of the juvenile or male bird which is used to flush quarry from cover.

A huge part of "hunting" historically and today has been man harnessing nature to his advantage to put food on the plate, as "recreational" falconers today I would hope we strive also to make the flights as sporting as possible, I am certainly not out there simply to kill.

May I ask what bird you intend to fly, at what quarry, and what the land will be like?

Mike

[Ben C]

In my humble opinion: A sporting flight is one with a focus on the intended quarry having at least a 50 50 chance of escape or death. Ferrets are permitted as are pointing dogs, so long as you ENGINEER an exact balance between the hawks flight style and the preys method of escape. That means standing well back from the bury and flying from the fist.


However some days I need to eat meat so I am less gracious. ;) :lol: :lol: :lol:

[HunterPaul]

if im out there with a hawk...then my job, as the biggest useless **** on the field who couldnt catch a cold without aid, is to provide the best chance possible for the hawk... no matter what the quarry, or bird being flown.... ferrets are a must ...as is a dog... we talk about the importance of frequently flying our birds ...without ferrets or dog ...most of these days out would be just walking around aimlessly with a bird flying after us for food... as far as leaving the bird to its own devises ..we must maintain a certain amount of control over them.... they dont see or know fence bounderies and if they see a rabbit grazing on a field that you have been told you cant fly on... then being on there must be your responsibility....so as i said ...I like just put as much opportunity the birds way as possible.... a mixi rabbit is not sporting but a wild carniverous animal instinctively picks out the weak old and slow....who am i to pick and choose over instinct.... just do your part and let the bird ferret dog do theres.... sporting ... my arse.... if a rabbit bolts with a limp do we let it go because the bird will catch it too easily...

[Kanati]

if im out there with a hawk...then my job, as the biggest useless **** on the field who couldnt catch a cold without aid, is to provide the best chance possible for the hawk... no matter what the quarry, or bird being flown.... ferrets are a must ...as is a dog... we talk about the importance of frequently flying our birds ...without ferrets or dog ...most of these days out would be just walking around aimlessly with a bird flying after us for food... as far as leaving the bird to its own devises ..we must maintain a certain amount of control over them.... they dont see or know fence bounderies and if they see a rabbit grazing on a field that you have been told you cant fly on... then being on there must be your responsibility....so as i said ...I like just put as much opportunity the birds way as possible.... a mixi rabbit is not sporting but a wild carniverous animal instinctively picks out the weak old and slow....who am i to pick and choose over instinct.... just do your part and let the bird ferret dog do theres.... sporting ... my arse.... if a rabbit bolts with a limp do we let it go because the bird will catch it too easily...

arrrrr! the poor little cute bunnies on your land wont even get a day off for x-mas will they!? they are just trying to eat enough to survive and keep warm and look after their little ones at this time of year! Come on HP give them a chance... it is christmas after all ;) :roll:

[MickeyDredd]

Further to my earlier post, if a bolted rabbit evades the hawk and makes it to another warren I would not then ferret that warren - I don't consider that sporting. If the rabbit beat my hawk fair and square then it would deserve to live another day.

mind you, the FRT rarely misses ;) :lol: :lol:

[Sean]

how is ferreting with hawks unsporting kitana? hawking without them is unsporting for the hawk! as it wouldnt even get a slip.

[OutFlying]

Sean,
Depends how far from the hole your standing and how far has the rabbit got to go to make cover ?

Jim.

[MattSpar]

Surely, it all comes down to style. Any half decent falconer is, or should be, constantly striving for stylish flights. Bolting rabbits for a gos to fly is as sporting as the falconer wishes to make it. No one would position themselves so as to lessen the rabbit's chances of escape, but rather to increase the bird's chance of a stylish, challenging flight. The rook hawker soon eschews close slips in favour of more distant ones. The game hawker knows the real sport doesn't begin until October, and so on. It's this quest for style that makes the whole thing "sporting".

[OutFlying]

sums it up nicely Mattspar......................

[Kanati]

how is ferreting with hawks unsporting kitana? hawking without them is unsporting for the hawk! as it wouldnt even get a slip.


the name's 'Kanati' :wink: not finding a rabbit because you are not useing a ferret is unfortunate... getting a rabbit out of its home is - unsporting. the rabbit will emerge into daylight often unaware of the threat from the hawk. if it doesnt know its there how can it have a sporting chance?

I', not against it at all...infact i'm all for anything that gives a good flight and ends in a kill...but just because everyone does it and its a good method, doesnt mean its sporting. ferreting comes upder the heading 'gamesmanship' rather then 'sportsmanship'

there are a lot of field 'sports' that are in no way at all 'sporting' !

[Blaze]

If i went out hunting on my local permission without the ferrets....I would most certianly come home without even seeing a rabbit!....The permission i have up the yorkshire dales is different..some days i dont even use the ferrets....If your blessed to have rabbits staying above ground on your land through the day.....YOUR LUCKY...You dont get rabbits sat out through the day round here!...Harris hawks naturaly work in a team in the wild....So when in captivity the dog/ferrets & you are all hunting parteners to the bird...He/she rellies on the team members to pull together to enable her to achieve a meal for ALL the team!...

[MattSpar]

sums it up nicely Mattspar......................

I'm glad someone agrees.

[Kanati]

If i went out hunting on my local permission without the ferrets....I would most certianly come home without even seeing a rabbit!....The permission i have up the yorkshire dales is different..some days i dont even use the ferrets....If your blessed to have rabbits staying above ground on your land through the day.....YOUR LUCKY...You dont get rabbits sat out through the day round here!...Harris hawks naturaly work in a team in the wild....So when in captivity the dog/ferrets & you are all hunting parteners to the bird...He/she rellies on the team members to pull together to enable her to achieve a meal for ALL the team!...


i totally agree...but whats your point? what you have said does not make ferreting sporting does it! it gives you 'sport' but that doesnt make it 'sporting'

[Ben C]

the name's 'Kanati' :wink: not finding a rabbit because you are not useing a ferret is unfortunate... getting a rabbit out of its home is - unsporting. the rabbit will emerge into daylight often unaware of the threat from the hawk. if it doesnt know its there how can it have a sporting chance?

!

Kanati: A rabbit will always be aware of danger that is its instinct as a wild animal, particularly if its running away from a ferret. However as a falconer you must take this into consideration when slipping your hawk at the bolted rabbit. If you stand over the bury, or have you hawk in a nearby tree, this will fail to produce an evenly matched flight. I miss more rabbits than I catch using this method and thus it is sporting 9 times out of 10.

Bolted rabbits need a good head start or it does becomes one sided.

[Blaze]

So is sporting walking arround all day with the bird....Not giving her the oppurtunity to hunt?...As 99% of the time this would be the case!...If the rabbit bolts and gets away..Fair Play to it...I wont try bolting it again....So when a group of harrises in the wild chase something into a bush...Is it not sporting for them to flush it?...They relie on each other to PROVIDE FOOD for themselves!...

[Kanati]

you can never be sure that you are provding a sporting chance for the bunnie or what ever. it may have a chance, but you cant know its health fitnes, age etc.. also in turns of ferreting... is it now slowing down because it thinks its got away from the ferret but hasnt seen the hawk? was it fast asleep and is still slugish? in the pannic does it know exactly where it is?

without knowing all of this can you give a truly sporting chance? or are you just going to give it SOME chance...enough to make the flight look good, but not enough for it to actually get away?

When it comes down to it...everyone wants their hawk to make the kill. a good flight is even better when sucess is at the end of it! so all these flights that you are tring to make sporting are probably in favor of your hawk.

the really sporting flights are the ones where the quarry got the head start and you were not ready and for the duration of the flight you are thinking "its going to get away!" then i think it counts as sporting.

Ok - i'm ready! come on! give it to me! :oops:

[Ben C]

The same can be said for any quarry scented by a pointer. Is this un-sporting also. In my opinion it is no more or less sporting. PROVIDED the hawk is at a sufficient disadvantage to balance all the other elements.

If a 90% escape rate is only SOME chance then I don't know what else to do, other than tying lead weights to his ankles. :supz: :supz:


BEST FLIGHT I EVER HAD????? When the hawk missed last week but carried on into the bury without setting his wings..........missed but still awesome:heart: :heart:

[Kanati]

So is sporting walking arround all day with the bird....Not giving her the oppurtunity to hunt?...As 99% of the time this would be the case!...If the rabbit bolts and gets away..Fair Play to it...I wont try bolting it again....So when a group of harrises in the wild chase something into a bush...Is it not sporting for them to flush it?...They relie on each other to PROVIDE FOOD for themselves!...

When a group of harris hunt in the wild and they find a target they are somthing like 95% successful!!! NO - its not at all sporting...its the real world! a crule world where 'sport' does not exist! if they saw a rabbit running under the tree they were in...do you think they would give it a sporting chance? No they would kill it as quickly as they could!

[Ben C]

When a group of harris hunt in the wild and they find a target they are somthing like 95% successful!!! NO - its not at all sporting...its the real world! a crule world where 'sport' does not exist! if they saw a rabbit running under the tree they were in...do you think they would give it a sporting chance? No they would kill it as quickly as they could!

Agreed.

[Kanati]

So is sporting walking arround all day with the bird....Not giving her the oppurtunity to hunt?...As 99% of the time this would be the case!....


no you should do everything in your power to give her killing oportunities....i.e use ferrets, dogs, re-fluching anything you can etc...
I would do all of those things.... I have hounded a pheasent for ages and ages before...trying to flush it out a second time. Its what you do for your pride and joy...somewhere above you! I just dont call it 'sporting' thats all!

[Blaze]

When a group of harris hunt in the wild and they find a target they are somthing like 95% successful!!! NO - its not at all sporting...its the real world! a crule world where 'sport' does not exist! if they saw a rabbit running under the tree they were in...do you think they would give it a sporting chance? No they would kill it as quickly as they could!
Exactly!.....As falconers we need to stimulate as much as we can the natural ways of the wild harris..Whether this means ferreting or flushing with a dog to get flights/kills.....Then So Be It!..

[Blaze]

no you should do everything in your power to give her killing oportunities....i.e use ferrets, dogs, re-fluching anything you can etc...
I would do all of those things.... I have hounded a pheasent for ages and ages before...trying to flush it out a second time. Its what you do for your pride and joy...somewhere above you! I just dont call it 'sporting' thats all!
Sorry you must have posted this whilst i was replying!..

[HunterPaul]

so by what your sayin K... then baggies would be much better sport for both creatures...as we would find it easier to set up a situation, that is fair and sporting than just happen along something that may not be a sporting flight as we all step on rabbits and the bird catches them within 3 yards... is the baggy thing a more sporting way..... as you would probably get 95% more sporting flights.... I think falconry is in fact a spectator sport... as the main reason we are all there is to spectate.... so of course we want to see fantastic flighhts with a kill at the end of it.... but the main thing for me is to let that bird go as soon as she sees a movement, I need her to trust me... and part of her hunting prowess is her ability to move without thinking, so i want to react as quickly as her... many harris know when it is your fault that they couldnt get off fast enough... when ive slowed them down in the past my fhh gets a right moody on... it only is a matter of time before the dog is more important than you ... and you are lower than the ferrets... i dont want to be the most inept on the field ...even though I am... so im trying my best...

[OutFlying]

Exactly!.....As falconers we need to stimulate as much as we can the natural ways of the wild harris..Whether this means ferreting or flushing with a dog to get flights/kills.....Then So Be It!..

Then don't do multiple kills, let it eat as much as it can from the kill and come back in a few days when its hungry :supz:

[Blaze]

Then don't do multiple kills, let it eat as much as it can from the kill and come back in a few days when its hungry :supz:
Ok Smart Arse I Give In!...:roll:

[Bones]

Who gives a F**k what you think do you all really think yer bird/birds care all they are interested in is food and your there with whatever means poss to help and assist in that im sorry if you all disagree but next time my MHH catches somthing i will think wether or not he caught it in a sporting way and remove it from his grasp if i think he has not but i bet he will soon get ****ed of with me if i persist in keeping and holding him back on flights he could have taken
PAUL

[Ben C]

We are there as the highest and most intelligent in the field not just their to watch. We set up the situation through training and then engineer nature until we get a good sporting flight. Otherwise I would just go and get a gun. :supz: :supz:

[Blaze]

Who gives a F**k what you think do you all really think yer bird/birds care all they are interested in is food and your there with whatever means poss to help and assist in that im sorry if you all disagree but next time my MHH catches somthing i will think wether or not he caught it in a sporting way and remove it from his grasp if i think he has not but i bet he will soon get ****ed of with me if i persist in keeping and holding him back on flights he could have taken
PAUL
What Who Thinks?....

[Blaze]

Il be back in 10...Need to go meet the Drug Dealer!:weedman:

[Bones]

What Who Thinks?....
sorry should i have put who cares what any of you think

[Blaze]

Just thought it was aimed at me m8 thats all!...

[Bones]

Just thought it was aimed at me m8 thats all!...
sorry mate no just my oppinion thats all if it was aimed at anyone i would have stated mate and whats the dealer offering today any specials on ?
PAUL

[Kanati]

actually...that would be a good way of making it a sporting flight. you can work out the destances etc...get healthy rabbits..yeah..that might work...but that would not be much fun. They way you say you hunt is how i do it too. I dont worry about sporting flights at all...he the hwak goes for it, then its fine by me...if it happens to be a blind rabbit with a broken leg that is catually running towards the hawk...so be it!

so by what your sayin K... then baggies would be much better sport for both creatures...as we would find it easier to set up a situation, that is fair and sporting than just happen along something that may not be a sporting flight as we all step on rabbits and the bird catches them within 3 yards... is the baggy thing a more sporting way..... as you would probably get 95% more sporting flights.... I think falconry is in fact a spectator sport... as the main reason we are all there is to spectate.... so of course we want to see fantastic flighhts with a kill at the end of it.... but the main thing for me is to let that bird go as soon as she sees a movement, I need her to trust me... and part of her hunting prowess is her ability to move without thinking, so i want to react as quickly as her... many harris know when it is your fault that they couldnt get off fast enough... when ive slowed them down in the past my fhh gets a right moody on... it only is a matter of time before the dog is more important than you ... and you are lower than the ferrets... i dont want to be the most inept on the field ...even though I am... so im trying my best...

[HunterPaul]

Who gives a F**k what you think do you all really think yer bird/birds care all they are interested in is food and your there with whatever means poss to help and assist in that im sorry if you all disagree but next time my MHH catches somthing i will think wether or not he caught it in a sporting way and remove it from his grasp if i think he has not but i bet he will soon get ****ed of with me if i persist in keeping and holding him back on flights he could have taken
PAUL
absof***inlutely..... sporting my arse... im hunting...

[Bones]

absof***inlutely..... sporting my arse... im hunting...
Thought you might see it from me oppinion
they dont call you hunter paul for nowt pmsl

[Jack Merlin]

[QUOTE=Quote:
Originally Posted by OutFlying
sums it up nicely Mattspar......................


I'm glad someone agrees.
[/QUOTE]

Words cost nothing.

Outflying, what are your views on the sporting values of flying ex-layer pheasants in September?

[Dave G]

hunting is hunting nothing fair about it ,hungry want to eat dont care how its caught aslong as its not wasted quarry killed then thrown into the hedge thats not sporting but most if not all falconers respect quarry in some way or other

[Ben C]

I go out and fly everyday and I could go and kill quarry everyday, but what is the point? What would I achieve other than an over full freezer.

****** that...I would like to put the effort into refining a bit of finess and style.

[MattSpar]

Words cost nothing.

Explain?

[Minty]

Interesting Replies which strenthened my point that there are so many different views.
I have tried to get Forest land and i have now got around 5,000 acres of which 2,000 is woodland. Just walking through and doing a bit of beating gets the bunnies going while the Harris swoops down for the chase.Quite often she will find something on her own which to me is the best thing of all.
This tends to be a Pheasant or Squirrel but could be anything.
Horses for Courses as they say but i think the most rewarding and relaxing of all is just walking along with the bird following on with no ferrets to carry and hunting in this way no worry 'Where are the ferrets or where has the dog ****ed of too just you bird and kill, but i do understand if the terrain suits it.

Get Forest for a HH and i think its much more Fun.
just my tupence mind thats all.

P.s Anyone no where i can get one of those spikes to stick it through its head i find it much better and a cleaner dispatch.Many thanks in advance.

Thankyou gentlemen and may you have many kills and much spectacular slips
I just love this sport!!:supz:

[Gary.B]

how is ferreting with hawks unsporting kitana? hawking without them is unsporting for the hawk! as it wouldnt even get a slip.
Sean,
Where do you get the idea a hawk doesn't get a slip without using ferrets? I'm using neither ferrets or a dog this season, not because I think it's not sporting, but the wife won't let me have ferrets and my pointer is only 6 months old. I hunt with my hawk almost everyday, he get flights at rabbits everytime, he gets a kill almost every outing.
Maybe you need to find better hunting ground.

[Sean]

ive also found that when rabbits do sit oput, they dont sit out futher than about 10 yards or so, u have to really stalk em, and ambush them, with a wee ****** dashing flight, is that sporting?

[HunterPaul]

Interesting Replies which strenthened my point that there are so many different views.
I have tried to get Forest land and i have now got around 5,000 acres of which 2,000 is woodland. Just walking through and doing a bit of beating gets the bunnies going while the Harris swoops down for the chase.Quite often she will find something on her own which to me is the best thing of all.
This tends to be a Pheasant or Squirrel but could be anything.
Horses for Courses as they say but i think the most rewarding and relaxing of all is just walking along with the bird following on with no ferrets to carry and hunting in this way no worry 'Where are the ferrets or where has the dog ****ed of too just you bird and kill, but i do understand if the terrain suits it.

Get Forest for a HH and i think its much more Fun.
just my tupence mind thats all.

P.s Anyone no where i can get one of those spikes to stick it through its head i find it much better and a cleaner dispatch.Many thanks in advance.

Thankyou gentlemen and may you have many kills and much spectacular slips
I just love this sport!!:supz:
you got a hawk going then??????

[Ben C]

Went out and had a go at free flight today: Just as an experiment :roll: Bagged 2 rabbits in as many minutes, missed 2 woodcock (got a foot full of feathers), missed 4 pheasant. Not one flight seen clearly because of the trees, bramble and cover. Both rabbits sitting tight under a bush and mugged from 70 feet.

A nice stroll, and meat in the oven, but no way was it sporting, well balanced and properly orchestrated. Ho hum each to their own. ;-)

[Minty]

you got a hawk going then??????

No. Not of my Own but about 4 days a week i fly with the same 3 HH and also we take out a Perigrine. one of the HH has become so used to me that i tend to think of it as my own . All 3 are related through bloodline so no problem. (if you get my Drift)
I have one on order in June (first clutch) which will be her sister and if she is as good as her Sisters and brothers then she will be a cracker.
I have just noticed in time that Forest land is just so much more relaxing as she Follows on. Having a Dog to flush is great but even without our birds get many kills.
One of the HH has been out of action so the 2 Females have hunted but seperately as one is learning to enter.
Yesterday we kicked up many many slips in the Forest.
That's all i am saying that you can just get more in the Forest with less Hassle (ie looking out for your ferrets or dog) than on open land in my view for a HH.
The perigrine my mate has i have Fantastic land for and most Game falconers as mentioned by the owner 'Would pay me to use this land' and i am not surprised as the Perigrine has killed many many times with spectacular slips.Last time he took on some Canadian Geese only to be fooled at the last minute as she had to pull up near the water, if it had been on land she would have nailed it but it was spectacular to watch as she kept smacking it down and down.
I took a falconer yesterday on to more of my land to try to enter his bird and i know this sounds odd from a guy without a bird yet but my experience of 4 times a week with experienced falconers has given me a great lot of knowledge of the HH's in the field. This i was trying to teach the new guy and the HH called Sade did well had about 6 slips but could not quite nail them one was the easiest slip you can get but she pulled up on the Bunnie but she will get there as she attacks well but just can't do that final kill........Not yet anyway.He is a Shy Falconer who finds it hard to ask for land so he can use mine until the end of the season and i will get her used to killing before March for the march madness.
My experience now is to learn how to bring up the bird and i have 3 or 4 falconers to be there for me 3 of which are very experienced.I am a bit of a **** taker but show much respect and they know that and i get it back (Hence Minty) just as much which makes the outing more enjoyable.
So its looking good. My advice to newbies is get out there see how it works in the field from following on to dispatching the prey and general field craft etc.
Now comes the Harder bit in june but it seems less harder the more you read and tips you pick up from others i am looking forward to it and have money riding on the fact that in her second season she will nail more kills than her sisters...................BRING IT ON!

[HunterPaul]

your mate probably just needs to bring the weight down a smidgen... has he dragged a couple of bunnies and let it have a decent crop? veeriong off last minute is classic bit too high.... my bird would follow rabbits to the hole able to take them any time when she was immature....then just land in the tree above the hole....she was slightly high in weight and a shave off soon had her nailing them..... i personally dont like to be too relaxed when out hunting it is my way of relaxing....if you get my drift... but I do know if you give your harrios too much freedom you will end up chasing it all round the country side...as it goes in search of rabbits, and that can quickly become a bore...

[Ben C]

.
That's all i am saying that you can just get more in the Forest with less Hassle (ie looking out for your ferrets or dog) than on open land in my view for a HH.


Minty, don't get me wrong I spent most of my first season having a right laugh in woods hunting through trees, following on and just generally mooching about. IT IS WICKED (in fact i still do it). It helped cement a bond with my hawk, taught me clean pick ups and fed me from bum to beak, so to speak!!

However if I did this for 15 years it would be boring as hell. The balance between the hawk, ferrets, a dog and a human is to my way of thinking not hassle, but what turns falconry from merely killing to an art form. Getting the hassle to work like a smooth running machine is what makes it sporting in my humble opinion. Not to mention the flights are far more fun. You wait, you will want to improve your sport year on year as well. But the intitial question was what was a sporting flight........dropping from trees ain't it mate, thats all:cool: :cool:

I wish you all the best with your forrest hunting, it is awesome and you will love every second of it mate :supz: :supz:

[Jack Merlin]

Words cost nothing.

Outflying, what are your views on the sporting values of flying ex-layer pheasants in September?

Whatever happened to Outflying? Seems to have disappeared....!!

[Sean]

Quite often she will find something on her own which to me is the best thing of all.
This tends to be a Pheasant or Squirrel but could be anything.
you may end up with a self hunter on ur hands then one, and one with a missing toe too

[Mary Quite Contrary]

BenC quote
[But the intitial question was what was a sporting flight........dropping from trees ain't it mate, thats all


Too right!

Catching loads of bunnys on the drop is not taxing for the bird and is not good falconry.
It might make for a good confidence booster early season but thats it.

[Mary Quite Contrary]

you may end up with a self hunter on ur hands then one, and one with a missing toe too

too right!

[Minty]

Minty, don't get me wrong I spent most of my first season having a right laugh in woods hunting through trees, following on and just generally mooching about. IT IS WICKED (in fact i still do it). It helped cement a bond with my hawk, taught me clean pick ups and fed me from bum to beak, so to speak!!

However if I did this for 15 years it would be boring as hell. The balance between the hawk, ferrets, a dog and a human is to my way of thinking not hassle, but what turns falconry from merely killing to an art form. Getting the hassle to work like a smooth running machine is what makes it sporting in my humble opinion. Not to mention the flights are far more fun. You wait, you will want to improve your sport year on year as well. But the intitial question was what was a sporting flight........dropping from trees ain't it mate, thats all:cool: :cool:

I wish you all the best with your forrest hunting, it is awesome and you will love every second of it mate :supz: :supz:


Ben,
Thanks for the best wishes and i am not having a pop but if the Bird is free and follows its prey only for the prey to hide up with the bird in the tree above what exactly do you want to do?
On this occasion i ran a fair distance but before i got there she swooped down into the bracken but missed the bunny.
Would that not what she would have done in the wild?
Infact because she was high i believe she saw it without our help as she went quite away infront of us on the original slip for this bunny landing on a branch above it.
'Sporting'?
Just Natural behaviour and i see nothing wrong with that

Regards and Good Hunting.

[Minty]

you may end up with a self hunter on ur hands then one, and one with a missing toe too

A self hunter is that not the most sporting of all?
The bird can loose a toe if it self hunts or not surely.
If you are kicking up through the forest and your bird slips from the fist can you be sure that she has seen a bunny and not a squirrel?
At times yes but at times no.
So you will hold the bird back if you can't definately recognise the prey?
It can happen anyway one way or another, i think we are leaning towards the old free V fist debate here.
I will do everything in my power to look after my bird but it is a Natural hunter and that's what it should be doing just as i do when i hunt nobody tels me what to hunt and not.
We talk about a Nanny state perhaps a 'Nanny bird'.

Just my tuppence sean but i disagree thats all.
But that's what the Forum is for or else it would be bloody boring if it was not.

Regards

[Ben C]

A self hunter is that not the most sporting of all?.....



Self hunting is not falconry and is VERY bad practice Minty, no matter how you dress it up. If your hawk self hunts you will lose it, after all it doesn't need you and is by extension badly trained.

With regard to emulating 'natural' behaviour regarding following on, yes it is true HH follow on in the wild and 'drop' down onto prey. But one of the aims of falconry is to have control and discipline over your charge. It is also to provide a sporting chance to the prey as much as possible.

I am not a expert by any means, but these are very basic lessons most experienced falconers will tell you. Well my mentor did anyway. :wink: :wink:

[Sean]

if its a self hunter it wont be much sport, because most flights will be out of sight! therefor a waste of good quarry. and id try my best not to let the bird go on the tree rats.

[OutFlying]

Whatever happened to Outflying? Seems to have disappeared....!!

Only just read this - couldn't answer it, as I never flown ex-layers.

All the best Jim.

[OutFlying]

Words cost nothing.

Outflying, what are your views on the sporting values of flying ex-layer pheasants in September?

Probably would be an even match for a young eyass of the year, but haven't tried it.

Is it that time of year again Derry ?

[Gary.B]

Sorry to go off thread a little, but at what point does flying free become self hunting.

[HunterPaul]

when you start to feel like a bas**rd at a family do..... you will soon be disregarded by the bird who the higher up it goes the farther it sees....then you try keeping up with it....if it kills a rabbit three feilds away...is it not our duty to get to that quarry and put it out of its misery asap.... climbing fences barbed wire atc...and some of us are not the fastest or most nimble of characters also you run the risk of the bird straying onto non permitted land causing all sorts of trouble with live stock etc and more than one bird has been shot ...justifyably in the farmers /landowners eyes... whose fault is that ...the falconers for not having the best possible control over his charge.... most birds when used to being free in the trees will follow you...but getting them down for a tidbit turns into a noghtmare when they know there is the chance of an easier kill from where they are .... a lot of the flights are missed and the coup de gras...is very often not seen.... might as well stay home and watch tv... and as far as minty saying nobody tells you what to and what not to hunt....we are all dictated to about what we can and cant hunt....it is your responsibility as the person borrowing the land you are on to adhere to any demands that may be put upon you.... mistakes can be made when out hunting...but most can be avoided... if you are in control of whatever is doing the killing ...be it gun bird dog ferret or yourself....

[Pogue Mahone]

hp said it all,when we go out with our birds its to hunt,if its ferrets or dogs or just by walking in a field an something gets up and the bird wants to go then let it go and see what happens because if you try and judge wots right and wrong with a slip youll have very few kills witch is the whole point of falconry.....well in my view anyway ...call me old fashioned

[Minty]

.I am not saying just leave the bird up there...That's stupid but if its a trained well bird it will come to the fist if it is either to high or at risk if you have land near a railway, road etc etc.
Many of you have given an opinion against my views (fair enough) but now answer mine. If you are flying through a forest are you keeping it on the Fist then? Because if as you mentioned Paul it bolts for something miles away and today i am going out with a falconer who is well known and very experienced and never has he had to find his bird Miles and miles away on top of a Rabbit whilst walking through a forest. We will have 8 hours today so i will tell you the furthest it went . ..OK..You might not see all the Flights and it might miss more kills but then that's more sporting surely. 'Sporting' in my book is to give both hunter and prey a chance and by doing this you do , if standing near a warren with a bird on the fist waiting for your ferret to push one up are you saying that is more sporting than flying it free through the trees?
The comments i have heard are not 'Sporting' comments but selfish comments as because you did not see it you might as well stay at home and watch tV.
And Sean your comment of most sport will be out of sight and it will be missed who are or what are we talking here sport for you or the prey?
Your word 'Sport' seems to apply that you must see the flight and kill that's your interpretation of 'Sport' all in your favour of you and the bird but not for the Rabbit is it?
So if you have the bird on the fist say 10 yds away from the bolting rabbit and you let it slip that is more sporting than the bird being more than that from a tree top ?
As i say again Sport for Who.....You...Or the Hunted?
I too would if not given the choice of a tree near by to place the bird on the fist but IMO if there is something to let the bird perch on nearbye that's where it is going.
So to leave you with this question to answer......
If you are walking with yourself or Dog do you keep the bird on the Fist in a forest enviroment? Because if you do not, you are being hypocritical as that bird could bolt for something miles away as you said and thats not sporting is it.
And then its all home and watch me be a looser on Eastenders!:wink:
Again, Just a view Chaps .
I will just have to agree to disagree on this but hey enjoy it out there how ever you fly your bird as that is your choice.

Many Regards.

[Ben C]

because if you try and judge wots right and wrong with a slip youll have very few kills witch is the whole point of falconry........call me old fashioned

Judging the right and proper sporting slip is the skill of falconry, killing for the sake of it is not. Unless the only meat you eat is that which you catch yourself.

[Ben C]

.I am not saying just leave the bird up there...That's stupid but if its a trained well bird it will come to the fist if it is either to high or at risk if you have land near a railway, road etc etc.
Many of you have given an opinion against my views (fair enough) but now answer mine. If you are flying through a forest are you keeping it on the Fist then? Because if as you mentioned Paul it bolts for something miles away and today i am going out with a falconer who is well known and very experienced and never has he had to find his bird Miles and miles away on top of a Rabbit whilst walking through a forest. We will have 8 hours today so i will tell you the furthest it went . ..OK..You might not see all the Flights and it might miss more kills but then that's more sporting surely. 'Sporting' in my book is to give both hunter and prey a chance and by doing this you do , if standing near a warren with a bird on the fist waiting for your ferret to push one up are you saying that is more sporting than flying it free through the trees?
The comments i have heard are not 'Sporting' comments but selfish comments as because you did not see it you might as well stay at home and watch tV.
And Sean your comment of most sport will be out of sight and it will be missed who are or what are we talking here sport for you or the prey?
Your word 'Sport' seems to apply that you must see the flight and kill that's your interpretation of 'Sport' all in your favour of you and the bird but not for the Rabbit is it?
So if you have the bird on the fist say 10 yds away from the bolting rabbit and you let it slip that is more sporting than the bird being more than that from a tree top ?
As i say again Sport for Who.....You...Or the Hunted?
I too would if not given the choice of a tree near by to place the bird on the fist but IMO if there is something to let the bird perch on nearbye that's where it is going.
So to leave you with this question to answer......
If you are walking with yourself or Dog do you keep the bird on the Fist in a forest enviroment? Because if you do not, you are being hypocritical as that bird could bolt for something miles away as you said and thats not sporting is it.
And then its all home and watch me be a looser on Eastenders!:wink:
Again, Just a view Chaps .
I will just have to agree to disagree on this but hey enjoy it out there how ever you fly your bird as that is your choice.

Many Regards.

Minty, you asked what a sporting flight was at the start of the thread: Using the height advantage of trees in a forrest is not sporting as it becomes too easy to catch rabbits. This is from my experiences of hunting in heavy woods and cover, it is however good fun.

Standing well back from a point or bolt hole with a hawk on the fist on level ground gives the rabbit a fair chance of ESCAPE: Therefore it is more SPORTING for the rabbit/pheasant/grouse/etc etc.

The thing is Minty, it's not a case of agreeing to disagree, this idea has evolved over 4000 years, so I think it is important to carry on with these traditions. Most experienced falconers would probably agree.

[Sean]

minty, im just saying that if your bird kills out of site, whats the point in it? you dont get the excitment of seeing the bird persue its prey? i personnoly think the best sport to be had is with the ferrets, as ive bolted aboyt 80 for rolf so far and hes hit a few, but still to catch one. he has managed to catch one, but that was one that got up under my feet through thick brambles lol.

[Osiris]

I've just got a full time job. However it wont effect my birds in anyway. Fitness etc. will be kept up as luckely i have trained someone up (my mother) to keep them fit by flying them everyday etc. I will come home at night, and spend time with them in the kitchen etc. Some days during the week i will feed them when i get home at night too, and perhaps fly them (verticals) etc...

True, it wont be the same as just now, but they wont loose out on flying almost everyday etc. When mothers OK with the hunting side of things, then she can take my harris out hunting during the week too.

But when i settle into my job properly, then i will consider taking them to work too so i can fly them etc on my lunch hour, like many of people do.

The job is only temp until march. and hopefully by then the centre i work for too will be fully up and running, so i can work their full time and have my birds with me @ all times.

J

[HunterPaul]

you can fly the bird however you like ....but i can guarantee.the bird will get used to being in woodland up a tree and the only way you will get it down will be either if it wants to come down ..or for the lure ...which if used too often to get it back on the fist it will be a chore to get it back to that eventually.... all this will result in you being a pain in the arse for your bird...and your fist being the least helpful place in the wood....there fore if you do require for some reason to fly from the fist in wood land....say if youre guesting on somebody elses land or the gamekeeper says only rabbits ..n0 pheasants...then you are left with a bird constantly bating to get up trees...and when it is let loose a pain in the arse to get back on the fist...slowing anybody elses slip till you do....this is not something im passionate about, and am spending far too much time on....but if not seeing the chase and kill was not important to me ...why take part in the first place... as for sporting I really dont care if ...but yes id prefer to see a good flight... and when ive a fit clever bird then i like to keep it on the fist ...cos at that point the poor bunny needs all the help it can get....I mean come on guys how much has the birds hunting ability grown since you all started your training....well wait for next year when its on its second season....

[DeathFromAbove]

A little trick i've taught kaia to do (in only a matter of mins, just show how easy they pick things up) if she's being a bit stubbourn in a tree or wherever.

She sees me get ready for it and is already away, i throw a chick head or a piece of beef, in fact any titbit into the air and she sails over and catches it in mid air and takes it to ground to scoff, then it's dead easy to recall to the glove.

I only do this once in a while for fun or if she's being really stubbourn somewhere and other efforts have failed to moved her otherwise they come to expect it all the time and glove work goes out the window.

[Dave G]

carnt see why a harris would be stubborn and sit in a tree as all the ones ive been out with come at an instant, unless too high in weight ??????

[DeathFromAbove]

hmm sounds like B.S. to me a bit there mate.

so you saying you've never flown a bird that you thought was on weight but was too high and had stubbourn problems? Thought everyone had that problem when finding the true hunting/flying weight. u have to play around with weight ot see just what they'll do and how heavy they are needed to be to do it at some point, can't keep on on same weight indefinately.

[HunterPaul]

carnt see why a harris would be stubborn and sit in a tree as all the ones ive been out with come at an instant, unless too high in weight ??????
my main objective throughout the season is to work the bird at the highest possible weight....i also cannot beleive youve never been out with a harris who hasnt instantly come when recalled..... i try not to fly my birds on a knifes edge...especially when following on...they are burning loads of energy, it is also not always a weight prob... the bird being intelligent knows its far better off getting easier kills from a tree....

[Graham Stuart]

carnt see why a harris would be stubborn and sit in a tree as all the ones ive been out with come at an instant, unless too high in weight ??????



I smell sh*te here lol even the best birds sometimes become a bit stubborn,

[Dave G]

ive had a stubborn redtail but not harris,yes i do fly him at high weight but he hangs back a little but not sit in tree and gets stubborn would leave him there if he did that or shoot him

[Bones]

Pmsl
Paul

[Minty]

OK........I said i would report back on todays proceedings......


I have a cracked rib
I also have a massive cut on my hand
Got stuck in a Bog up to my waste.
Lost my knife i have had for twenty years.
Ripped my jeans by my Danglies (scraping one of them but just a scrape due to tennis ball size) and ripped my arse
We had a Puncture
Had a row with the wife about smelling like Duck ****!
Told the wife she smells like Dog ****!
Sleeping with the Dog who smells like chicken **** from the farm out back!

Quite a **** day really!

Goodnight!:drinkers: