bad habits seem to come around....

[Raseni]

my eyas MHH, is getting the bad habit of not following on very well anymore, he also overshoots me if he doesn´t see at least a chicks leg in my hand. He is a firm hunter, and does very well, but it seem that he is loosing interest to the fist.
His weight was 600grams first time flying free, and he is now flying at 645-650grams. He does well one day, and is beeing a little p****K the next. What is one to do?
It seems to me, that this can only be a product of my handling, but I have no idea whats gone wrong. I have not had much trouble with him from day one, and this just seemed to pop up from out of nowhere.
Have anybody had similar experiences?
I am not so keen on bringing his weight to much down, as it is quite cold here now, -2.-3 in night and about 3-4 degrees in the day. His Keel also feels quite sharp, so I am a bit affraid of bringing his weight down.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

cheers,
R

[Fawkes]

I flew two harris' all summer (for demos mind) that, by the end of it would do the same thing. I think it stems from learning that if they mess with you, or wait long enough, you'll put up at least a chick leg to get them back. Theres a thread on here somewhere that suggests training them to fly to the fist without being able to see the food - then when they land, and only then, they get the food hidden in your fist. This way you can put whatever you want in there, sometimes nothing, but they always have to come and land to see what it is.

Hope that helps!

[Dave G]

not all harris hawks come to the fist if no reward is shown,also i know you say hes at a good weight but snatching or not following on can be a weight issue,if i was you i would keep him interested with lots of tit bits when out in the field ,keep him close by giving him tit bits then walking off call him if he does not come call him to the fist with a chick leg then recast him up a tree and repeat this,he will soon stick close and follow on thats if hes at the correct weight as if a little heavy they do hang back a little

[MickeyDredd]

Are you hunting him from a following on position or from the fist?

[Flying High]

not all harris hawks come to the fist if no reward is shown,also i know you say hes at a good weight but snatching or not following on can be a weight issue,if i was you i would keep him interested with lots of tit bits when out in the field ,keep him close by giving him tit bits then walking off call him if he does not come call him to the fist with a chick leg then recast him up a tree and repeat this,he will soon stick close and follow on thats if hes at the correct weight as if a little heavy they do hang back a little

i would do the something but i would also take him out of the hunting since for a couple of days and just fly him and put more emphasis to you and the glove. once in a while i do this just to remained the bird that he has to at least keep one eye on me when out flying

[Raseni]

I did never show him food in my hand until he started doing this C**p. It really frustrates me, when he is just looking dumb at me, and I am looking like a fool, calling and calling.
I have hunted him both from fist and follow on, but mostly follow on, as I have never hunted rabbits with him, only feather, and he´s got a lot better chances from a follow on situation.
I seems like he is quite clever, because if I show him a chick wing, he just overshoots me, even sometimes on a chicks leg.
I am leaning towards it beeing a weight issue too, but his keel just feels quite sharp already, and as this is my first bird, I am not quite sure if I need to be worried or not.
I am taking him to germany on a rabbit hunt next month, and then I will freeloft him through the moult.
I shall try only feeding him from the fist and not the lure for a while, because he comes straight away at the sight of both lures( rabbit or swung)
It seems like he´s just taking the **** on me, but maybe he needs to come down in weight a bit. But has succesfully hunted pheasant at this weight. Even cock. So he shouldn´t be too high I reckon´.

I bring him inside every afternoon, and put him out in aviary at about 9pm, just so he doesn´t sit in the cold night too many hours, when he is flying weight.
Do I need to do this? am I causing more harm than good? He seems to be enjoying the company of us in the house, but maybe not.

I shall just re-evaluate y whole training method for next season, and hopefully I will do things a bit better.


I shall try the advice you guys have given me.

I shall keep you posted

cheers,
Rasmus

[Dave G]

your harris dont want to follow you as why should he if he he is not rewarded,calling him as you go around your hunting ground and giving him a few fulls on a chick for coming when called will switch him back on to following you,why would your harris want to follow you if hes getting nothing from you keep him interested with small rewards from the fist,this is why hes not following as used to the lure coming out at some point bet he comes in quick when you swing the lure, just like he would if rewarded more for coming to the fist

[MickeyDredd]

I personally would have him on the fist more often for a while. It appears that he is having greater hunting success from a following-on position so isnt too fussed about coming to your fist for tidbits.

You need to make the fist a happier and more rewarding place for him to be i.e. if he is making kills from the fist then it is in his interest to be on your fist - once he works this out there is no reason why he will not want to be on your fist and will fly to the fist for no reward.

With my MHH I only need to raise the gloved fist and he will return to the glove with no food reward offered, he is however always rewarded after a good, but unsuccessful, flight at quarry from the fist when he flies back to the fist.

[Raseni]

I do give him tidbits all along his flights, every time I call him back to the fist, hopefully when we go hunting rabbits next month, he will have a lot more success from the fist. He has taken successfull flights from the fist, but more from follow on position. He has also found a great interest in hunting mice. It´s a real ******, how can you get rid of that habit?
I have spoken to a friend of mine here, that has flown 2 HH a male and a female, his female used to spend a lot of time looking for mice, and his male never does. Maybe he is just one of those birds with a great taste for mice.

I shall try to do more fist work for him, and not fly him to the lure.
He comes to the lure straight away, and with great aggressiveness.

cheers,
R

[MickeyDredd]

He has also found a great interest in hunting mice. It´s a real ******, how can you get rid of that habit?


Dont let go of his jesses when he bates at them ;-)

[Raseni]

he gets the mice on follow on as well, and when he is sitting in a tree and so forth.
Today was a totally **** day, he missed a cock pheasant, a hen, didn´t want to fly at the 2 hares we saw(small ones), and in the forest was a mallard drake sitting, my HH sat in the 3 meters above it, and didn´t even bother.
I have a feeling that he might be a bit overweight, at least that is what these signs are telling, but I am affraid of bringing his weight much down, as the weather is quite cold here about -3 and we also have snow.

any suggestions?
He has flown well at about 640-645grams in milder weather, today he flew at 655grams, and only had interest in pheasants.
Should I bring his weight back down to 640grams? will he be alright in his quaters even at flying weight in this cold weather?

cheers,
R

[MattSpar]

Personally, I don't keep calling a harris' to the fist when hunting. Why would I? It's all about partnership with the harris'. He will follow you only if he thinks it's worth his while, i.e. that you will do your bit by flushing quarry for him. Harris's will also expect the falconer to do the following if conditions dictate, if they spot some quarry the falconer hasn't seen. It's then up to the falconer to keep up and flush at the most opportune moment. Even when moving from one area to another, if within walking distance, I leave mine loose. One may have a flight in the most unexpected places, and these, strangely enough, will often end with a kill. Harris's are at their best when flown at complete liberty, without repeatedly being asked to return to the fist. Teamwork is the order of the day with this species, not blind, unreasoning obedience, I think.

[MickeyDredd]

Totally agree Matt, but a harris should have the basic obedience levels to come to the fist when called.

[MattSpar]

Totally agree Matt, but a harris should have the basic obedience levels to come to the fist when called.

Of course, that goes without saying, but calling to the fist just for the sake of it is a mistake in my opinion. If there's game about, it won't come anyway, and I wouldn't expect it to. As one may gather, flying a harris' from the fist is something I try to avoid. It's akin to hobbling a good horse, or working your pointer only on a lead.

[Dave G]

hi matt hope you dont think i keep calling mine back to the fist either lol,i walk for an hour and half and my bird has come to the fist as little as 3 times as like you say better off high in the trees ready for the kill as the fist not the best place,but seems like rasini hawk needs to learn the fist is not a bad place also to follow on which may be a weight issue but like he said the weathers pretty cold there at the moment and does not want to drop his harris too low

[MattSpar]

hi matt hope you dont think i keep calling mine back to the fist either lol,i walk for an hour and half and my bird has come to the fist as little as 3 times as like you say better off high in the trees ready for the kill as the fist not the best place,but seems like rasini hawk needs to learn the fist is not a bad place also to follow on which may be a weight issue but like he said the weathers pretty cold there at the moment and does not want to drop his harris too low

More often than not (much more often) the fist IS a bad place when in the hunting field, as far as the harris' is concerned. If I fly for a couple of hours, I may not call the bird to the fist at all in that time. You say you walk for an hour and a half. I hope you mean you spend an hour and a half locating and flushing quarry. If I spent my flying time just walking, any harris' of mine would push off and find his own quarry, and no-one would blame him. I suggest you might try improving his obedience in an area where there's no quarry. Your local playing field, that kind of thing. If you have good flying grounds, with an abundance of suitable quarry in flyable conditions, and you fulfil your part of the partnership by regularly flushing said quarry, your harris' will soon learn the best place to be is near you. The harris' is bright enough not to come unquestioningly to the fist if it thinks it's more strategically placed elsewhere (most of the time), and should not, in my view, be asked to.
I know well enough that some people do a lot of flying from the fist with the harris', and we all have our own preferences, but that's not my way.

[Tom OGrady]

Hi MATT
What is his top fat weight maybe this could be down to weight iknow that you have to be on the cautious side with the weather conditions being so cold . I had a simular problem once with my male i lowerd him a whisker and the problem was gone.
regards TOM

[Raseni]

I have trimmed hi sweight down to 640 and he´s doing good, BUT he is still reluctant to come to my fist, but if my girl flies him, there are no problems, so I must have made a mistake somewhere along the way.
I am just trying to figure out what.

anyway had 2 exelent slips at woodcock today, he didn´t catch any, but was quite close to one of them, about 1½-2 meter behind the little ******, but that zig zag flying was just out of my MHH´s league, but great to watch though.
Also has a decent flight on cock pheasant, but not close enough.

HH put the cock into cover, but I was unable to find it and reflush, didn´t have the dog with me. :-(

I have seen loads of gull around in the fields lately as the farmers have been out with the plow, but I have still not tried a slip at them.
I think I will between X-mas and new year if they are still around,

is there a good chance that he will catch one? I am talking about those big silver ******.....huge birds......look a bit to big, but he has got the temper for it I think.

thanks for all the advice

cheers,
Rasmus

[IAmTheWeasel]

my eyas MHH, is getting the bad habit of not following on very well anymore, he also overshoots me if he doesn´t see at least a chicks leg in my hand. He is a firm hunter, and does very well, but it seem that he is loosing interest to the fist.
His weight was 600grams first time flying free, and he is now flying at 645-650grams. He does well one day, and is beeing a little p****K the next. What is one to do?
It seems to me, that this can only be a product of my handling, but I have no idea whats gone wrong. I have not had much trouble with him from day one, and this just seemed to pop up from out of nowhere.
Have anybody had similar experiences?
I am not so keen on bringing his weight to much down, as it is quite cold here now, -2.-3 in night and about 3-4 degrees in the day. His Keel also feels quite sharp, so I am a bit affraid of bringing his weight down.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

cheers,
R
That's a fairly simple one.....HE'S FAT!!!! Why should he follow you when he doesn't need to? Harris's are very good at acting like they are starving when they are really quite fat and by the sound of the things he is doingie. flyby's at the fist, not following on, he needs to be dropped down a bit in weight....You yourself said it in this post that you flew him at 600 and now fly him at 650.....duh.....is that not an indicator?

[Wightwings]

drop him back........hide food IN the fist and make him work into it....

[Tom OGrady]

That's a fairly simple one.....HE'S FAT!!!! Why should he follow you when he doesn't need to? Harris's are very good at acting like they are starving when they are really quite fat and by the sound of the things he is doingie. flyby's at the fist, not following on, he needs to be dropped down a bit in weight....You yourself said it in this post that you flew him at 600 and now fly him at 650.....duh.....is that not an indicator?how s it going with the hawk mate i am sure its just a question of weight he may need just a tad off him.I am sure if you just persist he will follow on for you.
regards TOM:lol:

[Raseni]

things are going much smoother......he´s weight is down to 642grams today, but he is still not to keen on the fist, but I will put him to moult in a few days, so then I know next year not to fly him too much too the lure, and feed more of the fist instead. This has been my first season and we have had 4 pheasants( 3 hens and a cock) 2 grey partridges, 3 mallards( 1 drake and 2 ducks) So I am pleased with this first season.
I can read through my journal during moulting time, and reflect on the mistakes I have made, and hopefully not make them again next year.

It has been a great learning experience for me to own a hawk, but maaan it has been so exiting and giving. this is definately not last hawk.

This sport is amazing, and all I think about is coming home to fly my hawk when I am at the university.
I hope I will one day breed a hawk and train the eyass, that must be the ultimate satisfaction.
But there is still a few years before that will happen i reckon´.

thanks for all the help you guys gave me.

cheers,
Rasmus