Oh, which bird to start with?

[Peregrine At Heart]

I won't be starting my falconry apprenticeship for another year due to being deployed overseas (again!) for a year (I'm 20). I was wondering, though, when I do start which bird should I start with......the American Kestrel or the Red-tailed hawk? One obvious answer is if you want to hunt game that matters, take the hawk. You can't hunt much with the Kestrel except sparrows, mice and the occasional starling. But I heard that if you want to ultimately end up training a falcon when you get your General, you should start with the Kestrel. I would love to end up with a Peregrine. But then again, I wouldn't mind taking on a Harris Hawk either. I know they both have completely different hunting styles, but I just can't make up my mind. I hear that the falcons are a little harder to train, though. So, this is where you come in. Please, anyone that has experience on this, give me some info and help. All info will be greatly appreciated and put to use. Thanks!!! (And Merry Christmas!!!)

[GregMik]

Amy,
You should start with a RedTail. You don't know anything about weight control yet and a Kestrel is a small bird with a small weight window. It has nothing to do with hunting style as a kestrel hunts more like a RT than a Peregrine. So go with the Redtail and catch a whole bunch of things and have a blast before you get complicated with other falconry birds and be frustrated. If you need more advice give me a hollor at:

goshawk@comcast.net

Greg

[JFSeaman]

For some good US advice try the Apprentice Falconry board at http://apfalconry.proboards19.com/index.cgi.

I'm overseas too but probably for different reasons. I decided to get a bird here in England. I'll repeat my apprenticeship when I go home.

I chose my bird based on what quary is available.

The falconers I respect say choose on quary available, if quary is available for multiple species then choose on what you want and personality of the bird.

Don't let anyone convince you to choose a redtail based on macho (unless it's your choice). If someone you talk/chat with ever used a term like 'the power of a redtail', throw away their advice. I'm a 220lb plus guy and I'm going to train a kestrel this spring for an education program. I'm going to try to enter the bird on starlings or sparrows.

When you get home, find falconers in your area. If there are none, look around at what what wild birds are there. If you don't have a redtail population it might not be good to get a redtail unless you know where the cottontails, jack rabbits or squirrels are. If you don't see any kestrels might not be enough mices, sparrows, grasshoppers available (not likely).

Other things to consider. Redtails are heavy. Find something that weighs 2lb or a little more and go for a 1 hour walk holding it like you would a hawk. If you don't like carrying the weight put that into your decision. Kestrels require a little more monitoring on weight and for that first flying free and trying to enter the margin of error is very small, if you are not inclined to be weighing your bird 2 or more times a day put that into your decision.

Either bird will teach/allow you to learn skills that will help you toward that dream bird.

And the last bit, I have a redtail because I have rabbits to hunt.

[Tim Laycock]

Male Redtail!
No two ways about it.

[Finnish]

I would go for the Red myself as you would have much more fun with this bird rather than a small Kestrel. The Kes would be much harder for you to keep alive as it is a lot smaller and the weight management would be a lot harder, not saying that you would do it wrong. But it's up to you just my opinion.

Finnish

[Peregrine960]

Male Redtail!
No two ways about it.
Male redtail .......but I'm a little biased lol

[NGuruve]

i just wanna know wats the average weight for a male red tail im definatly getting a red tail next year just cant decide male or female ill be hunting mainly ground animals such as rabbits,brown hare and maybe squirrels and probably pheasant

im leaning toward female but wat do you guys think of the males compared

[Tim Laycock]

Get a male, it will be faster and without wanting to sound clever you will be less likley to send it the wrong way and end up frightened of it!

[JFSeaman]

I love my male.

From what I know from personal experience and from others average make is 2lb to 2 1/2 lb. Could be a little less than 2lb.

My bird hunts a 2lb 2oz now. Entered at 1lb 15 3/4.

I'd put my bird up against any practicle quary. Rabbit, hare, pheasant and duck. He's only had rabbit so far. Just an oppertunity thing.

[Moses]

peregrine960 mate thats one helluva awesome beast u got their mate :cool:

beautiful

and merry xmas :) and all of u and bb merry xmas bud :D

[Tim Laycock]

And you too Moses :D

[NGuruve]

cherrs for the advice dont worry about me being afraid of the bird i have handled sum pretty aggessivebirds in the past i just wanted to know if the male would be really gd for squirel rabbit and hare i know that they are probly better than a female at pheasant

[Hells99]

That is a beautiful bird, :heart: thanks for the piccies.

Helen

[Wurkin]

I started my apprenticeship this year. I discussed my options with my sponsor and decided on a male Red-Tail. This was due to the local quarry, a Red-tail made the most sense. We also decided Male, due to the winter time, we get a LOT or snow, (some years over 4 feet), with this in mind, I may be forced to hunt inside the city after pigeons, so speed was also a factor. A male is faster, just a touch.

I picked up Mort he was 1200 grams (out of the chamber, fat), 3 days later he finally ate off of the fist at 850 grams, I trained and free flew him at 820-830 grams. He was turning into a pet and not hunting until I took him down to 790 grams. 454 grams is 1 pound, so my male is well under 2 pounds.

Yours in sport
Henry

PS. Every state has different regulations, you will need to check to see what is allowed as an apprentice bird. MOST are RT's and Kestrals, however, others allow other choices.

[Tim Laycock]

Im pretty sure Goshawks are allowed in Alaska.
Could be wrong though!

[GregMik]

Yes Goshawks are an apprentice bird in Alaska. I think the Redshoulder may be an option in some states also. The new regs are going to allow an apprentice to fly a Harris's.

Greg

[Peregrine960]

Merry Christmas to you Moses and to everyone have a safe and Happy New Year

[Isaac]

I'll repeat my apprenticeship when I go home.

Do you think you'll really have to repeat your apprenticeship back in the States? I'm in the same boat flying here in Japan, I haven't been licensed in the States for 7 years or so but I plan on getting a few letters from the Japan Falconers Association president, the president of our local club, and document my experience flying here. I'll also try and get a letter from my old sponsor who knows I'm flying over here too. It'll kinda tick me off if they want me to repeat the apprenticeship just because the whole thing is set up as a "learning experience" that you graduate from in two years. After 4 years flying red-tails in the States and 3 years with a Spar and Harris in Japan I'd think I've met the graduation requirements...

But back to the point of this thread, I would say time should definitely factor in to your decision as well. Either bird should have as much of your time dedicated to it as possible but a kestrel REQUIRES (should be italicized, just don't know how to do that on this forum...) more time. A red-tail can be weighed once a day, a kestrel should probably be weighed more often (to put it in the simplest of terms).

[Peregrine At Heart]

Yeah, i was thinking more along the lines of a Red-tail too. I live in Nebraska so I have the usual quarry of rabbits, pheasant, and the like. I would appreciate the extra speed a male would give. I had heard about the weight situation on the Kestrel, so I was a little worried about regulating it to where it should be. I know it'll be a year before I start, but I've bought so many books already and I've been reading them cover to cover (such as the falconer's bible: North American Falconry and Hunting Hawks [yes, I've read this front to back]) and books on the training of red-tails. I also purchased the California's Guide to the federal test. It has every considerable question the feds would ever put in a test, the answers, and why it's that answer. I would recommend this book to anybody thinking about Falconry and apprentices. It's a great reference. Anyway, as an ending, Peregrine960, your bird is beautiful. Just breathtaking. I'm in awe. Seriously. That is an excellant example of why I want to get into falconry so bad. Later everyone, hope your Christmas was awesome.

Amanda

[Peregrine At Heart]

Yeah, i was thinking more along the lines of a Red-tail too. I live in Nebraska so I have the usual quarry of rabbits, pheasant, and the like. I would appreciate the extra speed a male would give. I had heard about the weight situation on the Kestrel, so I was a little worried about regulating it to where it should be. I know it'll be a year before I start, but I've bought so many books already and I've been reading them cover to cover (such as the falconer's bible: North American Falconry and Hunting Hawks [yes, I've read this front to back]) and books on the training of red-tails. I also purchased the California's Guide to the federal test. It has every considerable question the feds would ever put in a test, the answers, and why it's that answer. I would recommend this book to anybody thinking about Falconry and apprentices. It's a great reference. Anyway, as an ending, Peregrine960, your bird is beautiful. Just breathtaking. I'm in awe. Seriously. That is an excellant example of why I want to get into falconry so bad. Later everyone, hope your Christmas was awesome.

Amanda
PS If my original post shows up, sorry for sending two. Wanted to make sure it posted.

[Jastreb]

In case that I live in the US, no matter am I apprentinenc or not I would have one red-male is my choice, I flown one and enjoy it very much!
You have loads of game there and you will enjoy with him very much!

[HunterPaul]

male redtail....happy new year....

[GregMik]

Yeah, i was thinking more along the lines of a Red-tail too. I live in Nebraska so I have the usual quarry of rabbits, pheasant, and the like. I would appreciate the extra speed a male would give. I had heard about the weight situation on the Kestrel, so I was a little worried about regulating it to where it should be. I know it'll be a year before I start, but I've bought so many books already and I've been reading them cover to cover (such as the falconer's bible: North American Falconry and Hunting Hawks [yes, I've read this front to back]) and books on the training of red-tails. I also purchased the California's Guide to the federal test. It has every considerable question the feds would ever put in a test, the answers, and why it's that answer. I would recommend this book to anybody thinking about Falconry and apprentices. It's a great reference. Anyway, as an ending, Peregrine960, your bird is beautiful. Just breathtaking. I'm in awe. Seriously. That is an excellant example of why I want to get into falconry so bad. Later everyone, hope your Christmas was awesome.

Amanda

Amanda,
I have only flown male RT's. My GF, Tasha, has flown one of each. The males are good for everything you would want to fly except Jack Rabbits. If you want to fly Jacks you will need a female. I will make another suggestion. Don't read any more books until you take the test. It will just confuse you. Read NAFAHH (preferably an older edition) through again, pay particular attention to the deseases section and then go take the test. The test was written straight out of that book back in the early 70's. The test is outdated so if you read newer books some of the questions with be very confusing (Yes people I am working with my state to rewrite the test). If you want to prove that you are dedicated to the sport when you go to get a sponser it helps if you have already passed the test.

There is a meet starting Thursday down on Witchita, KS. If you would like to come down I can itroduce you to a bunch of falconers and show you some flying.

Greg


http://www.greatlakesfalconers.org/event.html

[Wurkin]

Yes Goshawks are an apprentice bird in Alaska. I think the Redshoulder may be an option in some states also. The new regs are going to allow an apprentice to fly a Harris's.

Greg


Goshawks are also an option in Ontario as well, however, after some reading and discussion it was strongly advised not to start with one. They are a handful, and are not nearly as forgiving as a Redtail or a Harris. My sponsor, who flies a Gos, told me point blank, that had he started with his Gos, he would most likely no longer be a falconer. It is definately a bird you work up to.

Henry

[Peregrine At Heart]

Greg, I would love to go down there to Kansas, but unfortunately I have to work that day. Unless I find someone to fill in for me. But that's hard these days. I'll see what I can do. It kind of sucks that I won't be able to start for another year; I'm already so excited. :) Thanks everyone for your info.

Amanda

[GregMik]

That day? We will be there till Sunday. If you would like to go PM me and I will give you my cell number.


Greg

[Colohen]

Amy,
You should start with a RedTail. You don't know anything about weight control yet and a Kestrel is a small bird with a small weight window. It has nothing to do with hunting style as a kestrel hunts more like a RT than a Peregrine.
Greg
GregMik
I Agree 110%;)

As for male/female , males are great but if you are in a area with squirrel I would go with a female for the larger feet . Not to say the males cant take squirrel but a squirrel bit is ruogh on the smaller feet of the males.
You should consider the weather , terrain , accessibility and type game you have , in the area you are in or will be in , as to the type of bird you wish to fly.
As for training , I use the same training methods used for peregrines with exception to kiteing .
My RT flight wt. 1385g , trap weight 1459g . Taken speically for squirrel hawking .I would love to fly a Gyr :prayer: but there is not enough open ranger and the climet is to hot where I am .:mad: :supz: