help first aid

[Sean]

hi guys, today i was flying with a friends female and my bird hit the female :S the female is fine around birds, but in self defence she was crabbing rolf, and rolf the same. theres a little nick, not even broken in to the skin, on his foot. should i treat this with so anti bioptics? or shoudl i leave it as i dont wnana be doping him up lol

[Sean]

p.s i also have nu gel

[FlameHairedFalconer]

I'd just put a bit of iodene on it if its not that big and not bleeding.

Oh and probably not fly Rolf with that other harris again.

FHF

[North East Harris Hawker]

50/50 solution of tcp and water, then gently scrub the area with an old toothbrush, make sure its nice and clean. use salt water if you prefer but i like tcp! keep a close eye on the area for the next few days and whisk him away to the vets if it starts swelling up or weeping

[Fletch]

In the field I would puffed some wound powder on it then cleaned it at home with a hibiscrub solution, then when the scab has dried I would apply E45 daily.

[Sean]

right ill put some nu gel on his foot i think? nick fox says it outdoes wound powder anyday

[Sprout]

Get the bird to a vets first thing tomorrow for some broad spectrum antibiotics. This may seem a bit over the top but I have seen birds die from inocuous crabbing injuries that have become infected. The problem is you cannot see where talons have gone in on the body so can't clean them at all. Over the last 12 months I have seen a dozen birds die from crabbing injuries that looked nothing at the time and have heard of about twice as many that have suffered a similar fate.

[Sprout]

Forget the foot, its the injuries that may or may not be there that you can't see that are the problem

[Sean]

what u mean where i cant see?

[Sprout]

On the body/legs, under the feathers. It might look just like they grabbed feet but personally I wouldn't risk it. Especially with sharp talons the wound closes over as soon as the talon pulls out, like a needle going in - you will not find these until too late and your bird is dead ie PM.

[Sean]

i seen it close up m8 and i didnt even think there was any injuries, i check over as soon and i got him on the fist. but now u have me worried about my mates bird, he got her in the back :S just went out and put some wound gel on the foot, gave it a little wash first tho

[Sprout]

Thats what you have to worry about - your mate definitely needs to get his bird seen for some antibiotics.

[ScotsFalconer]

flush it out with some pevidine solution or if u havent got any use hot salty water, iodine or saline. then apply the nu gel. if it starts to swell then take it to a vet. the pevidine or equivlent should kill of any bacteria and the nu gel stop any from getting in. make sure u check her over well to see if she is damaged in any other places.

[ScotsFalconer]

oh and clean out and reapply nu gel daily until it scabs over and heals. just to be on the safe side.

[Sprout]

Washing a penetration wound won't do anything, as I said it is like a needle going in that will seal itself quickly enclosing the infection. The bird needs antibiotics. Chances are there is no injury and she'll be fine, but that is a chance not worth risking I feel

[Sean]

cheers guys,
so another question... will rolf ever accept other harrises lol? hes hit this female 3 times now, and another mates male once :( , my mate said that it wont do him any harm a she will now realise taht he dont get any food for hitting haris hawks and that they fight back lol

[ScotsFalconer]

stop taking a hissy fit, if it starts to swell or is really deep then take it to a vet but a shallow nick or puncture mark on the foot should be ok al long as cleaned properly. its just like if u get a cut or jab yourself u dont run to the hospital unless it is really serious.

[Sprout]

Thanks for your advice Scotsfalconer, what are your qualifications for recommending veterinary advice??? I suggest you re-read my posts, the foot isn't the issue!!!!!!!!!!!!! The issue is the injuries that cannot be seen. I personally do not take risks with my birds and injuries, if you want to then fine but that is a negligent attitude to take and dangerous to post about!

[Sean]

another thing i feel for my mate that came with me is that when he went to disptach a rabbit his bird caught, it had 1 foot on the arse and was reaching for teh head, he grabed it and got nailed lol. but soon later when i fed rolf up on a rabbit an covered rolf with my body, and the wee bicth nailed me in the shin with both feet, again let go quickly. was a very strange day come to think of it lol. first time ive really be nailed too :cry:

[MickeyDredd]

Sean

Sprout is a vet therefore I suggest you take his advice, it is the unseen injuries (doesnt matter how close to the incident you were) which will kill your hawk.

[ScotsFalconer]

sprout- if u re-read my replies that y i said make sure u check her over very carefully. i have no qualifications as a vet but i am not saying give him/her so much of this drug and so much of that i am simply give general first aid advice. I have had to deal with many birds being grabbed and wild injured birds. so therefore i feel that i have a higher level of experience when it comes to general first aid. i am not say thought that u may not have more experience and am certainly not saying dont take it to a vet but instead be check over urself first. u will prob be able to do more that the vet will as the bird knows u. unless that is u want an x-ray. lol.

[Sprout]

stop taking a hissy fit, if it starts to swell or is really deep then take it to a vet but a shallow nick or puncture mark on the foot should be ok al long as cleaned properly. its just like if u get a cut or jab yourself u dont run to the hospital unless it is really serious.

Before you accuse people of having a hissy fit think what you are saying. If you can identify EVERY wound on a body after a crabbing incident then you are a better vet than me! It is impossible! If it starts to swell then it is possibly too late, birds go downhill VERY quickly. If you have experience administering first aid and dealing with injured raptors then you will also realise that pro-active treatment is more beneficial than waiting. To examine a bird thoroughly requires the bird to be cast, you cannot check thoroughly the whole body with it sat on your fist. AS you say it is important to check the bird yourself for obvious injuries but waiting incase infection sets in is a very bad idea. Start antibiotics early, even if you don;t think you need them.

[ScotsFalconer]

ok then sprout if the bird was taken to you what would be you line of treatment

[Sprout]

I've already said, treat obvious wounds ie the feet as you have described - clean with povidone-iodine and keep clean. I'd assume that I couldn't find any other evidence of crabbing but I'd still give a course of broadspectrum antibiotics AS A PRECAUTION. That is my point - it is all precautionary, I've seen too many birds die needlessly as the austringer/falconer thought it wouldn;t be a problem or left it and got shocked as how quickly the bird went downhill

[ScotsFalconer]

ok fair enough. there you go sean sprout has offered to do it for free for you!

[MickeyDredd]

ok fair enough. there you go sean sprout has offered to do it for free for you!

Might be cheaper to pay a local vet to do it ;)

[Sprout]

Very helpful advice Scotsfalconer! I bow my head to your obvious wealth of experience and knowledge. I know nothing about you but assume you have flown a huge number of birds and built up your experince with these, mainly through the fact that you have lost or killed so many due to your inability to take advice (freely) and the fact so many have been crabbed (as you have posted)!
I'm happy to take advice (if sensible) and give advice (freely) and I have done on many occasions. I would happily help Sean FOC if he was willing to travel over although I assume the distance is a problem.

[Sean]

fraid so :(

[ScotsFalconer]

ill have you know that i have flown many different specie of bird, have had experiences with many different injuries not all with my bird but birds brought into centres i have worked in. AND WOULD ALSO LIKE TO INFORM YOU THAT I HAVE NEVER KILLED, PERMANENTLY LOST OR HAD ANY OF MY BIRDS DIE ON ME.EVER!

[Sprout]

I'm pleased for you. REALLY.

[Tim Laycock]

AND WOULD ALSO LIKE TO INFORM YOU THAT I HAVE NEVER KILLED, PERMANENTLY LOST OR HAD ANY OF MY BIRDS DIE ON ME.EVER!

What do you want a gold star? :finga:

[Liam Hay]

Quality never seems to amaze me how many nobs there r on here

[Ninja-Jon]

Also never seems to amaze me our most of the posts end up as a slanging match of some discription..

[ScotsFalconer]

no i do not want a f*****g gold star. i was just emphasising the point. and ill have u know im not a nob.i just dont appreciate giving advice then have someone come on and say no no no thats not right.

[LongVVing]

I've already said, treat obvious wounds ie the feet as you have described - clean with povidone-iodine and keep clean. I'd assume that I couldn't find any other evidence of crabbing but I'd still give a course of broadspectrum antibiotics AS A PRECAUTION. That is my point - it is all precautionary, I've seen too many birds die needlessly as the austringer/falconer thought it wouldn;t be a problem or left it and got shocked as how quickly the bird went downhill

Hi Sprout, on the subject of broad spectrum anti-bios I have heard some breeders using an anti-bio called synulux (Not sure if this is a broad spectrum one or not and I am not a vet) to help bring on weak offspring to bring them thru a critical period only to find that later the treatment has compromised their immune system and they have died as a result later.
I did have synulux prescribed by my vet but my bird was an adult already. I just wonder if you have had any experience of this?
Also would you recommend any follow on treatment like a critical care formula to replace any good bacteria that may be destroyed by an antibiotic?

Sorry if this is kinda off thread but just asked as this thread mentions anti-bios.

Good hawking

[Liam Hay]

what do pppl expect when all u get is negativity against the obvious expert, no wonder ppl leave

[OutFlying]

A trip to the vets ain't going to kill the hawk - not going might do.

[Liam Hay]

What do you want a gold star? :finga:

****ing class m8

[GosFlyer]

sean something no one has mentioned, my birds always getting busted up by squirrels and hitting fences. you cant expect a bird to repair itselve at a low flying weight I always treat any obvious wounds with aquagel after washing with iodine but feed your bird up it may help it in a few days time if it becomes infected.:yawinkle:

[Sprout]

It is poor management to have to rely on anti-biotics for rearing birds, they knock out good and bacteria equally well so not good for growing birds. Synulox is a very good broad spectrum antibiotic. I never used to recommend pro-biotics after anti-biotics but do now. Overuse of anti-biotics causes many problems, pig breeders and chicken farmers used to use anti-biotics in the feed to help with growth but this has been outlawed due to increase in resistance due to overuse of the antibiotics. In this case (CRABBED HAWK) antibiotics are warranted INCASE there is an infection, in these cases you will only know this when it is too late! Pro-biotics help repopulate the normal gut flora so a good idea.

[Sprout]

Excellent advice Gosflyer - someone with intelligence

[Pitbull]

i think when it comes to first aid on the forum, it should be left to the vets, if you are worried enough to post on the forum you should be worried enough to take it to the vets. Its been mentioned about the forum being a cheap way out from buying books but when it come sto the health of the BOP the forum should not be considered, until after seeing a vet and only then to let others know what happened, whats been done about it and the outcome, this will help others on the forum better than spending time trying to diagnose and then prescribe, look at the thread the other day with glencool a friend of a friend, days later people still didnt know what was happening

but hey this is just another opinion

[Sprout]

Again good avice Pitbull. The forum is here to educate and advise but there bis no substute for seeing the bird in the flesh so to speak. I will offer advice but as said in many posts before, if you're worried or concerned in the slightest get the bird to a recognised avian vet

[GaryPCO]

A trip to the vets ain't going to kill the hawk - not going might do.
might do lol some of the vets i know,i wouldnt take a chicken:cool:

[GaryPCO]

Again good avice Pitbull. The forum is here to educate and advise but there bis no substute for seeing the bird in the flesh so to speak. I will offer advice but as said in many posts before, if you're worried or concerned in the slightest get the bird to a recognised avian vet
just a thought sprout how about making a list or first aid box,that you think all falconers/austringers should have id welcome your advice as im relatively new to hawks,it would be good for everyone and birds alike and if one day the inevitable was to happen then wed have tho stocks to combat it,come on guys what do you have for your birds and where do you get it??

[Pitbull]

just a thought sprout how about making a list or first aid box,that you think all falconers/austringers should have id welcome your advice as im relatively new to hawks,it would be good for everyone and birds alike and if one day the inevitable was to happen then wed have tho stocks to combat it,come on guys what do you have for your birds and where do you get it??

good idea.... and what its used for....theres no point in having something in a box without knowing what its for

[LongVVing]

It is poor management to have to rely on anti-biotics for rearing birds, they knock out good and bacteria equally well so not good for growing birds. Synulox is a very good broad spectrum antibiotic. I never used to recommend pro-biotics after anti-biotics but do now. Overuse of anti-biotics causes many problems, pig breeders and chicken farmers used to use anti-biotics in the feed to help with growth but this has been outlawed due to increase in resistance due to overuse of the antibiotics. In this case (CRABBED HAWK) antibiotics are warranted INCASE there is an infection, in these cases you will only know this when it is too late! Pro-biotics help repopulate the normal gut flora so a good idea.

Sprout, thanks for your opinion I must admit i so far have only experienced a squirrel bite on a harris's foot luckily I gave it the immediate first aid and kept a check and all was OK. I will think differently in future. So far all of our Harris's have been ok with eachother but there is always a risk crabbing will occur.
I know that antibiotics have often been over prescribed in humans too which has caused problems such as resistant strains of bacteria.

Good hawking.

[Sprout]

Squirrel bites are horrendous, my HH cost me £2000 in three seasons at different vets with squirrel bites before I qualified! As far as a first aid kit goes all I recommend is a crop tube and electrolyte solution or glucose solution, caustic pencil (or potassium permanganate) and possibly a splint and dressing material. Crop tubing will save more birds than any other procedure but it needs to be done properly, practice first on dead pigeons/quail to make sure you are in the crop not trachea. Caustic pencils/potassium permanganate will cauterise bleeds. Splints for suspected broken bones - but only as emergency first aid until the bird can be seen by a vet. Lastly I always carry povidone-iodine, a good antispetic for bites/wounds.

[Sprout]

Why did I " throw a hissy fit" on this one? As a project at university I sampled bacteria on birds feet/talons. The most I grew out of one bird was 17 different types! I also grew clostridia ( capable of causing tetanus and botulism) as well as MRSA!! These were birds in good condition and maintained well - they belonged to JPJ at Newent!!

[Hells99]

LOL Sprout, I went to the doc's for one of my Coeliac checks and explained I 'd started handling and working with BOP's and he immediately stuck a tetanus jab in my arm! Better safe than sorry!

He was obviously alarmed enough about the kinds of bacteria on birds talons to do that and also lecture me on washing wounds carefuly!

Helen

[LongVVing]

I have a first aid kit from Westweald falconry in my jeep whenever Im out with my birds. Basically it contains the crob tubing kit/fluids/antiseptics/supports/instructions etc.. I think the key is to treat immediately as often the bird may require urgent action before transportation to an avian vet. My vet was the guy who taught me to crop tube fluids for example. It would have been pointless to have the tools and the medicine in a kit and not know how to use them.

Good hawking

[Claire]

I once had a barn owl land on my right hand as I was putting food on the glove, I got a tiny talon ***** which I cleaned after the display. 4 days later i couldn't move the hand at all and had to take very strong antibiotics, I wouldn't be taking chances with my bird.

[Sean]

yup the westweald kit is the one i have. the problem is that there is so few falconers here that theres no specilised vets, and very few even see raptors at all most first aid has to be done yourself. t

[Bod]

I carry an avian first aid kit in my hawk bag (from Neil Forbes), together with a small bottle of water for diluting lectade etc.I also carry some anticeptic wipes for me, incase I get nailed by the bird.

I also have the telephone number of my avian vet in my mobile if I need urgent advice.

So far I've only used the first aid kit on one of my ferrets when she got nailed by my Harris and the anticeptic wipes on my thumb when the ferret who was well ****ed off nailed me.

Regarding the items in the first aid kit should they be renewed annually or will they last a couple of seasons?
Also once Nu-gell is opened any idea how long it will last before it has to be chucked?

[Hawkmaster]

MOVED FROM, YES YOU ALL GUESTED IT GENERAL FALCONRY