Interesting don't you think?

[Minty]

I said i was going to take no further part on here but i will just break the rule once as i think that this is an interesting statistic.
I am a Moderator on another Forum and i ran a motorbike website that grew from 4 of us to now over i believe 6,000 members!!
On this site we have 1,670 at present.
When i and 4 others ran our site we always monitored the 0 and under 5 posts in the members column as we felt that that was a guidance to a few statistics. Some had just joined but it was all done in a single day so we only took about 1-2% of the final figures to allow for this.
some had been a Month (feeling there feet) we tended to take around 5% for this. Some where 'viewers' which i include them in my final figures.
And the rest where obviously interested in motorbikes (why would they join a forum on it?) but where scared to post as a beginner or just did not like the way the forum was run, the latter we felt though was small as a large % would have checked the forum out before joining and would have liked the forum.
So..........the % is 8%. But we allowed for other things like shyness or just people who suddenly went off biking this could be a fairly large %.
So we worked out that a Whopping 20% of members that had less than 5 posts or zero posts may have reasons apart from the reason i am about to state which is a fair % we thought.
So..................All those reasons taken into hand and i/We knew by talking around that many other sites of over 1,000 members worked more or less on the same lines.
So.............We have the final 80% of which IN OUR OPINION where beginners who where to frightened for feel of 'being put down' to even post 1 post but some who had posted up to 5 posts but felt they where put down or had no constructive help or had no response at all.

On this site we are just short of 1,000 out of 1,670 of which 700 (approx) have O to their name and 300 (appox) which have 5 or less to their name.

Thats one hell of alot if you take the 20% out of that figure you are still Approx looking at 50% of members who have joined this forum are Affraid to post.
Tell me its bullshit! if you like but we ran a 6,000 member website and these % where about right infact maybe on the generous side at 20%

So you guys that have got your head stuck up your arse are frightning 50% of new members away from here.
You and from the many responses i have had recently from others no who you are and so do we.


We took into hand (and remember this was a Bruising bikers site) that 20% was the highest we could accept and tried to keep it below that.

50% 50% !!!!

Keep going you morons , but what makes me laugh are the very ones who are scaring them away are quite often the ones that think they are 'Well he/she needs to know straight that this is a straight talking forum and we need to start them off on the right track from the start..............BULLSHIT!
'I am sorry i no you are new but you are damaging biking and you need to stop'.........BULLSHIT!
'Oh god you don't no how to even change the oil on your new bike its underneath the bike come on i know your new but thats rediculous..........BULLSHIT!

Each one of those comments scared the hell out of many first time posters ( WE KNOW THAT, THAT IS A FACT ON THAT FORUM) especially women bikers .

No offence to the Admin and Mods on here as i have chatted to them on PM's many a time and are good guys but that's an alarming figure.

I know what some will say 'What about the silly posts etc etc) we Knew that Humour even if you did not think it funny do not scare newbies away its he subject in hand 'BIKES' and 'BIKING' that does.

Shame aint it!:(

[Out Hunting]

Minty was not the only one which has had abuse from everyone in the last couple of weeks what about old EHS (think it was) with the harris??

Shouldnt we be helping these guys? Some of these are the future of our sport. Also with a bigger following we will have a stronger stance against the Anti's.

I am sure that LACS does not treat potential followers in such a mannor. Lets buck up guys and give these guys some help.

Also Minty, less of the slagging mate hu? not all of us jumped on you, some did try and offer sensible advice but maybe....anyway.

:axe:

[Andy Rabit]

[QUOTE=Out Hunting]Minty was not the only one which has had abuse from everyone in the last couple of weeks what about old EHS (think it was) with the harris??

Shouldnt we be helping these guys? Some of these are the future of our sport. Also with a bigger following we will have a stronger stance against the Anti's.

I am sure that LACS does not treat potential followers in such a mannor. Lets buck up guys and give these guys some help.

Well said that man:supz: ,keep it going Minty hope the bird's doing fine.

[Minty]

Minty was not the only one which has had abuse from everyone in the last couple of weeks what about old EHS (think it was) with the harris??

Shouldnt we be helping these guys? Some of these are the future of our sport. Also with a bigger following we will have a stronger stance against the Anti's.

I am sure that LACS does not treat potential followers in such a mannor. Lets buck up guys and give these guys some help.

Also Minty, less of the slagging mate hu? not all of us jumped on you, some did try and offer sensible advice but maybe....anyway.

:axe:

Its just a Figure there are no mention of personal names.if you feel the right to come on here and defend yourself then maybe you should look again at your advice? on here.
None of you two guys above did that and i think i explained of the many well wishers on here .
Its not me i am referring to as riding motorbikes , boxing and Rugby all my life i hope you get the picture that 'Sticks and stones will break my bones (****! i have no front teeth over a dozen fractured ribs knees and legs and a crushed back doing them) but names don't hurt me.
I just can't be arsed on here with the Keyboard hide behind slaggers . (bit like my old mate Ian Beale:D ).
The fact above IMO is a Fact that is close to the Mark.
No Names, Just facts, its a lot of scary beginners.

[Out Hunting]

I do think that you have given the guys concerned a good 'kick up the ar5e' And now hopefully beginers and noobs will get all the help and advice required. isnt it time now that all this was forgotten and i am sure that the people involved in the 'slagging' will be more considerate to new members in the future.

It obviously shows to everyone how much you care for your bird by taking it to the vet to get it fixed, posting on here to get advice etc.......I am sure that the guys would love to see you posting again, and will give you and all noobs the break(pardon the pun) they need!!:)

Any update on the bird??

[Minty]

I do think that you have given the guys concerned a good 'kick up the ar5e' And now hopefully beginers and noobs will get all the help and advice required. isnt it time now that all this was forgotten and i am sure that the people involved in the 'slagging' will be more considerate to new members in the future.

It obviously shows to everyone how much you care for your bird by taking it to the vet to get it fixed, posting on here to get advice etc.......I am sure that the guys would love to see you posting again, and will give you and all noobs the break(pardon the pun) they need!!:)

Any update on the bird??

Check RATZ update!

Regards

[Jack Merlin]

(Snipped)

So you guys that have got your head stuck up your arse are frightning 50% of new members away from here.

Shame aint it!:(


Minty,

I have to agree with you.

What is missing on this group is RESPECT.

I am not a beginner (quite the reverse in fact) but I stopped posting on here because of continual harassment and personal attacks by a small group of "experts".

Normally, I am interested in what others think and how they do things. That doesn't mean I have to condemn their opinions or even follow their example. It is even possible to learn from a fool and, believe me, I am doing an awful lot of learning from reading some of these posts!

Even if some people are not yet experienced falconers, they often have some other skills which are useful to the sport -- so everyone can learn from intelligent contributions.

I'm afraid I DO blame the moderators. I haven't looked, but I am sure personal attacks, obscenities, etc. are against the site provider's rules. Such needs to be stamped out promptly.

It is this sort of bad behaviour and lack of respect for others that will eventually get falconry banned in the UK.

Back to lurking.

[Graham Stuart]

yo minty mate i done the same last week, left but was persuaded to return and i get the ussuall pish about owls from BARBARY GIRL, i dont mind naming the ******s on here, whats is the problem with owls some folk just like them more, but he knows best, no one is doing falconry any good with all your pish comments and slagging folk off, if you's dont have a constructive comment to make then i think its best to keep your traps shut, just my humble opinion but what do i know as i only got owls;)

[The Ninja]

It's a problem on most forums guys/gals, unfortunately some folk think that they are the font of all knowledge & if you don't do it their way then you are quite obviously:
a) an imbecile
b) wrong
c) an imbecile

I watched on the forum for a while before my 1st post, unfortunately because of what I had seen my 1st post apologised in advance for any stupid questions I may have asked, pretty sad eh.
There are some really intelligent folks on here (& yes, there are probably some real dipshits as well ) It tends to be the same people jumping down others throats though, I wonder if they would be so vocal face to face ? methinks not, it's sometimes very easy whilst sitting (hiding ?) behind your keyboard.

That aside, I can understand why some folk get stressed out with some of the questions from folk who already have a b.o.p, but, as has been said millions of times already on here, which is best, shoot them down in flames (& harm the bird ?) or give the help required (albeit through gritted teeth.)

I can't understand people not enjoying the humour side to some of the posts, that is very strange.
"Humor (humour in British English) is the ability or quality of people, objects or situations to invoke feelings of amusement in other people. The term encompasses any form of entertainment or human communication which invokes such feelings, or which makes people laugh or feel happy."

Anyway, thats my tuppence worth. This is a fantastic forum with unbelievable amounts of stuff on it, keep up the good work guys. (oops, & gals)

p.s - no point arguing if you disagree with any of this, I'm 100% correct !

:-)

[MickeyDredd]

It's a problem on most forums guys/gals, unfortunately some folk think that they are the font of all knowledge & if you don't do it their way then you are quite obviously:
a) an imbecile
b) wrong
c) an imbecile


Hi Ninja

I do understand what you are saying however this does oversimplify things. From what I've observed most arguments stem from :

a) Experienced falconers seeing the continuing stream of newcomers to the sport obtaining a hawk before they have the requisite, or even basic, knowledge to train a hawk to a good standard, keep it in good conditions, and keep it alive! These people in my mind do not consider themselves the font of all knowledge but you might think from the frustrated tone in their post that this is how they come across. Standards is the issue, and the continuing erosion of the standards threaten the sport of falconry.
b) falconers who do not want to read threads about owls. I dont understand why they read them then! Perhaps as AndyUK says they should have access to such topics blocked - Mods?
c) Inexperienced forum members giving inaccurate and sometimes dangerous advice, which the more experienced members will comment on and perhaps criticize and a battle then kicking off.
d) Personal vendettas - ban the perpetrators who consistantly mess up threads. Also if you accuse someone on here of something have the decency to justify your attack if they ask you to otherwise dont attack them in the first place.
e) misinterpretation of posts. Easily done sometimes on a forum.
f) a contant stream of nonsense threads. Humour, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder, each to their own, etc but most falconers come on to a falconry site to discuss falconry, if the balance of threads swings to be more silly threads its a waste of time and bandwidth.

I know Hawkmaster is a bit p*ssed off about accusations the Mods dont do enough on here but as I've discussed with Andy UK before if you lock a thread at the start of an abusive battle you kill it dead, the mods can then either delete the offensive bits and unlock it again or delete the whole thread - if it is deemed offensive I dont see the point of leaving it in public view. Moderating on here must be a time-consuming and difficult job but things are getting out of hand at times and need to be brought into check.

Just my opinion, form an orderly queue and please be polite - I have been!

[MattSpar]

Hi Ninja

I do understand what you are saying however this does oversimplify things. From what I've observed most arguments stem from :

a) Experienced falconers seeing the continuing stream of newcomers to the sport obtaining a hawk before they have the requisite, or even basic, knowledge to train a hawk to a good standard, keep it in good conditions, and keep it alive! These people in my mind do not consider themselves the font of all knowledge but you might think from the frustrated tone in their post that this is how they come across. Standards is the issue, and the continuing erosion of the standards threaten the sport of falconry.
b) falconers who do not want to read threads about owls. I dont understand why they read them then! Perhaps as AndyUK says they should have access to such topics blocked - Mods?
c) Inexperienced forum members giving inaccurate and sometimes dangerous advice, which the more experienced members will comment on and perhaps criticize and a battle then kicking off.
d) Personal vendettas - ban the perpetrators who consistantly mess up threads. Also if you accuse someone on here of something have the decency to justify your attack if they ask you to otherwise dont attack them in the first place.
e) misinterpretation of posts. Easily done sometimes on a forum.
f) a contant stream of nonsense threads. Humour, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder, each to their own, etc but most falconers come on to a falconry site to discuss falconry, if the balance of threads swings to be more silly threads its a waste of time and bandwidth.

I know Hawkmaster is a bit p*ssed off about accusations the Mods dont do enough on here but as I've discussed with Andy UK before if you lock a thread at the start of an abusive battle you kill it dead, the mods can then either delete the offensive bits and unlock it again or delete the whole thread - if it is deemed offensive I dont see the point of leaving it in public view. Moderating on here must be a time-consuming and difficult job but things are getting out of hand at times and need to be brought into check.

Just my opinion, form an orderly queue and please be polite - I have been!

For what it's worth, I think that sums things up pretty well.

[The Ninja]

Hi Ninja

Hiya m8


I do understand what you are saying however this does oversimplify things. From what I've observed most arguments stem from :

a) Experienced falconers seeing the continuing stream of newcomers to the sport obtaining a hawk before they have the requisite, or even basic, knowledge to train a hawk to a good standard, keep it in good conditions, and keep it alive! These people in my mind do not consider themselves the font of all knowledge but you might think from the frustrated tone in their post that this is how they come across. Standards is the issue, and the continuing erosion of the standards threaten the sport of falconry.


Thats a fair and valid point, however, who is wrong here : the breeder that sold the bird or the inexperinced owner who wasn't aware of the trials & tribulations of owning a bird ? (obviously we are not talking about the half wits who are continually told not to do something then go ahead & do it, these are not the type of people I'm trying to stand up for.)


b) falconers who do not want to read threads about owls. I dont understand why they read them then!
Hear Hear. :-)


c) Inexperienced forum members giving inaccurate and sometimes dangerous advice, which the more experienced members will comment on and perhaps criticize and a battle then kicking off.

It's more about the way that people are criticised than what they are criticised about m8, nobody should have a problem with constructive criticism.


d) Personal vendettas - ban the perpetrators who consistantly mess up threads. Also if you accuse someone on here of something have the decency to justify your attack if they ask you to otherwise dont attack them in the first place.

Totally agree.


e) misinterpretation of posts. Easily done sometimes on a forum.

Easily done with any written communication m8, someone may write something with a smile on their face whilst the reader has a frown. (sometimes the smileys help, not always though)
:-)


f) a contant stream of nonsense threads. Humour, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder, each to their own, etc but most falconers come on to a falconry site to discuss falconry, if the balance of threads swings to be more silly threads its a waste of time and bandwidth.

Most of the threads start of the correct way (& the question is usually answered) but due to the camraderie on here it usually vears off somewhere else. I've was in a forum before where they stopped all off topic posts etc. The Mods pointed out that it was a Martial Arts forum, not a joke shop, what was left was about 2 dozen folk who only wanted Martial Arts talk, (& because they were so serious were always falling out because their style was the best !) However, it's only my opinion. :-)


I know Hawkmaster is a bit p*ssed off about accusations the Mods dont do enough on here but as I've discussed with Andy UK before if you lock a thread at the start of an abusive battle you kill it dead, the mods can then either delete the offensive bits and unlock it again or delete the whole thread

Best thing to do m8.

Sorry this post is so long.

;-)

[HawkingRock]

Hi All
I've read this thread with interest as being a newbie I'm constantly searching through threads to find anything that might be of any relevance to me.
Before I took up this sport I took the time to read every book I could get my hands on and spoke to as many people as I could as well as looking at my own personal situation to see if I was capable of giving the commitment you all know is needed.When I decided the time was right I purchased all that was necessary and bought my first bird.Now I've heard it many times before that "you don't learn to drive till you've passed you're test"and thats true in falconry.No matter how much you've read you can not gain experience through reading books and my bird was not responding to some of the things I was reading I should be doing which is why I used the forums for advice and through this I now have a cracking bird that does everything I ask of him.I have however read posts from other beginners which have been relevant to me to find that most of the replies have been put downs with no constructive advice at all to other posts which have just turned into slagging matches or tittle tattle between a few individuals with no actual reply to the thread whatsover.Come on guys,you were all beginners once.

[The Ninja]

Come on guys,you were all beginners once.

Nope, not on here m8, you must be thinking about somewhere/something else.

:-)

[CooperMan]

Hi All
I've read this thread with interest as being a newbie I'm constantly searching through threads to find anything that might be of any relevance to me.
Before I took up this sport I took the time to read every book I could get my hands on and spoke to as many people as I could as well as looking at my own personal situation to see if I was capable of giving the commitment you all know is needed.When I decided the time was right I purchased all that was necessary and bought my first bird.Now I've heard it many times before that "you don't learn to drive till you've passed you're test"and thats true in falconry.No matter how much you've read you can not gain experience through reading books and my bird was not responding to some of the things I was reading I should be doing which is why I used the forums for advice and through this I now have a cracking bird that does everything I ask of him.I have however read posts from other beginners which have been relevant to me to find that most of the replies have been put downs with no constructive advice at all to other posts which have just turned into slagging matches or tittle tattle between a few individuals with no actual reply to the thread whatsover.Come on guys,you were all beginners once.
well said hawking rock
I think a lot of the guys on here forget that we have all made mistakes, if they deny it they are telling porkies. The people posting with more experience on this site have to remember that the the new posters may not have traweled through the old threads to find their info. As experienced Falconers we have a duty to encorage and inform all beginners no matter how daft the question. one of the problems with most pastimes is they have several styles and as ninja said alot of us tend to think that our style is best. We need to be a bit more open minded and remember that some of the people getting info from here and ignoring it may be getting it from a third party not on the site which contradicts our info. There is nothing we can do but try and help in what ever way we can. Even if we are saying what they are doing is dangerous for the bird in what ever form. If we scare them off with insults and aggresive comments then the birds stand no chance at all at least if they are still reading and hopefully posting we have a chance.
CM

[HawkingRock]

We have to remember as well that the tighter we are as a community the stronger we are against the antis.

[Moses]

I said i was going to take no further part on here but i will just break the rule once as i think that this is an interesting statistic.
I am a Moderator on another Forum and i ran a motorbike website that grew from 4 of us to now over i believe 6,000 members!!
On this site we have 1,670 at present.
When i and 4 others ran our site we always monitored the 0 and under 5 posts in the members column as we felt that that was a guidance to a few statistics. Some had just joined but it was all done in a single day so we only took about 1-2% of the final figures to allow for this.
some had been a Month (feeling there feet) we tended to take around 5% for this. Some where 'viewers' which i include them in my final figures.
And the rest where obviously interested in motorbikes (why would they join a forum on it?) but where scared to post as a beginner or just did not like the way the forum was run, the latter we felt though was small as a large % would have checked the forum out before joining and would have liked the forum.
So..........the % is 8%. But we allowed for other things like shyness or just people who suddenly went off biking this could be a fairly large %.
So we worked out that a Whopping 20% of members that had less than 5 posts or zero posts may have reasons apart from the reason i am about to state which is a fair % we thought.
So..................All those reasons taken into hand and i/We knew by talking around that many other sites of over 1,000 members worked more or less on the same lines.
So.............We have the final 80% of which IN OUR OPINION where beginners who where to frightened for feel of 'being put down' to even post 1 post but some who had posted up to 5 posts but felt they where put down or had no constructive help or had no response at all.

On this site we are just short of 1,000 out of 1,670 of which 700 (approx) have O to their name and 300 (appox) which have 5 or less to their name.

Thats one hell of alot if you take the 20% out of that figure you are still Approx looking at 50% of members who have joined this forum are Affraid to post.
Tell me its bullshit! if you like but we ran a 6,000 member website and these % where about right infact maybe on the generous side at 20%

So you guys that have got your head stuck up your arse are frightning 50% of new members away from here.
You and from the many responses i have had recently from others no who you are and so do we.


We took into hand (and remember this was a Bruising bikers site) that 20% was the highest we could accept and tried to keep it below that.

50% 50% !!!!

Keep going you morons , but what makes me laugh are the very ones who are scaring them away are quite often the ones that think they are 'Well he/she needs to know straight that this is a straight talking forum and we need to start them off on the right track from the start..............BULLSHIT!
'I am sorry i no you are new but you are damaging biking and you need to stop'.........BULLSHIT!
'Oh god you don't no how to even change the oil on your new bike its underneath the bike come on i know your new but thats rediculous..........BULLSHIT!

Each one of those comments scared the hell out of many first time posters ( WE KNOW THAT, THAT IS A FACT ON THAT FORUM) especially women bikers .

No offence to the Admin and Mods on here as i have chatted to them on PM's many a time and are good guys but that's an alarming figure.

I know what some will say 'What about the silly posts etc etc) we Knew that Humour even if you did not think it funny do not scare newbies away its he subject in hand 'BIKES' and 'BIKING' that does.

Shame aint it!:(


well put minty

[Scruff]

I agree that this is a deffinate problem on this site, I think its so sad that some posts are misunderstood and get a slagging off ; also the newbie slating that goes, on from the 'senior' members (that means time served on forum btw and not experience). . I think who ever comes on here as a starting point is here for advice, knowledge and a bit of support, and Ive only seen this occur in small number of cases. Ive seen many newbies told they should never have a BoP, instead of advise about how to make things better if they've made a mistake. Ive also read a post where it read:

' ANYONE THINKING OF STARTING IN THIS SPORT SHOULD BE SHOT'!

what? what kind of advise is that?
I would think that those involved in the art and practice of falconry would welcome new blood to keep the sport alive and take this chance through the forum to advise those newbies to keep the standards high. of course its not a falconers job to do this, its a voluntary thing, so if theres no positive advice to be made why post at all? why post a useless derogatory comment? Im not sure I understand why some folks wish to do this apart from the joy they get when logging on later to find some reaction .

I also read the posts referring to bengy's progress and was saddened by that,so its not just the newbies who get slated here. Ive seen some folks leave the forum entirely because of posts becoming petty arguements.

..... however, on the other side, this is a fantastic site for research into specialised topics of interest and some genuine folks who give excellent advice and the knowledge in general of those who post here is fantastic!
This is what I do enjoy about the site, the experiences I can continue to learn from and the knowledge of the equipment on the market. so I continue to come here and read these posts . .. but as a footnote , I don't like posting on this site, it doesn't make me feel comfortable.

[Tr1gger]

I can understand that the MODs should do somthing but i no that they are a bit to stretched and tread a fine line here between wat they are supposed to do and sensoring the forum, perhaps if another couple of mods were appointed to keep the peace and mabbey in some cases sensor some of the compeltly unapporpriate (spelling) posts.

Again though, only an opinion

[The Ninja]

I think the sheer number of posts make it difficult for the mods.

[Ben C]

The bottom line is that passions run high with things people love. What did falconers do before the internet to gain advice and knowledge??? EXCATLY. If you come on a public forum having not read widely, are ill prepared, lacking a mentor/club membership, lacking land, a mews and being silly then you'll get hassle. Its not brain surgery is it??

Why should people be expected to tread on egg shells when some of the most basic things are ignored and excuses are put forward as concrete opinions. Most of which boils down to bad husbandry, arrogance about different species, snobbery and a total mis-understanding of the aims and objectives of hunting a BOP.

I am not an expert but my levels of respect towards my charge, the land and those with more experience than me is paramount. When I first visited this site I had help from a wide array of falconers, I still do. Yes I got hassle, but so what?? I was prepared and had met the basic requirements, what I got hassle for was NOT about keeping a BOP fit, healthy and more importantly ALIVE. Which more often than not seems lacking in a lot of people coming onto the site.

[Kornie]

True minty. The sad thing is, is that no one is being completely out of order. Just having an opinion instead. It would be so easy just to send them packing if this wasn't the case. What they don't do is voice their opinion in a manner which is respectful to others point of view.

I mean think about it, you really shouldn't need moderating it goes back to the days of school.... Should the mods honestly need to edit posts, tell you off for being naughty, punish people for saying "swears" in their answers and put you in "timeout" for week or two?

Clearly the answer is yes. Some warnings need to be given.

P.S. You have thr power to give bad rep as well!!

[Scruff]

I dont think it should be a moderators responsibility, I'm a moderator of another site and we dont have this problem, but its a much smaller site and its not related to looking after another living animal. we're all grown ups and should conduct ourselves as such.

But as I said before, Ive noticed only a few comments that I read to others that I think are unnecessary, whether its relating to husbandry or training or whatever...I just think a person will read it and and think "sod you all" and never return here for an opportunity to get some real proper support and end up making the bird's situation worse.

But the rest of the forum is inspiring and informative. :D

[Ben C]

Scruff, hello:

If ANYONE turns to a web-site forum to help solve their problems and get PROPER support then they are seriously mis-guided. This is a place to discuss things not to learn the basics cheaply and as a short cut.

Where is their REAL support? The owning of a BOP needs one on one help through a course or even better one of the big clubs. SIMPLE.

If a hawks life deteriorates because they thought 'sod you' then they are barking up the wrong tree. That is their choice and their responsibility. And for the record I am a novice and a newbie........

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

I dont understand? So just because this is a forum you are not suppose to ask for advice??
You can ask as much advice as you want and Im sure people are asking for seconds or third opinions, just because someone is in a big club it certainly does not make them a professional!!!
I heard so many newbis getting the most crazy advices by sk. "experianced" falconers, ask Hawka, he knows about that one!
So to have the chanse to go to a forum for more wide opinions is absolutely fantastic!
Its all very good that some people are hard skinned and can take a bit of "****", but not everyone is like that, like the thread said, there is many people who are TO SCARED to even ask in the first place, I think it is absolutely appalling to hear that some people feel uncomferteble in posting on here!
I do not mind people being firm, why should I, but things like "you re a discrese to falconry" ore "people like you ruins this sport" does not do anyone any good at all and I cant see what anyone is trying to achive by posting something like that, now there is exceptions of the rule offcourse. But many times the posts on here rippes someone to pieces before you even know the whole story! I think some people should step down from their high horses and try to conduct themself in a adult manner!!
I am not talking about jokes and well meaning sarcasm, Im talking about the downright nasty posts you see on here, there is no need for it and it does not achive anything whatsoever!

[Ben C]

ATFHB:

Any source of advice should surely be complementry to a mentor/club scheme. I would NEVER chastise someone for wanting to better themselves, that is just ignorant and foolish. You are right...joining a forum to get a range of ideas is excellent and will help INFORM. But only if you have an already CONCRETE base of kindness and understanding towards your hawk.

However, to use this place as the main point of reference is STUPID and deserves the full force of those who know the sport inside out. (I am not one of them I may add). Why should people put up with shabby behaviour and cheap ass ownership???. Answer.....They should not, so public vilification is just the first lesson to be learn't.


This is just my opinion and only that.......

[Tr1gger]

Ben C u do hav kind of a point, but if the people see this and do sod the lot of us well thats just tough. FOr the people that dont even though somtimes u get the compeltly stupid sod then we should try to get them help in the way of a mentor, im not saying that standing on egg shells is the answer but letting all cannons fire at will on the poor so and so can be far to harsh.

[CooperMan]

ATFHB:

However, to use this place as the main point of reference is STUPID and deserves the full force of those who know the sport inside out. (I am not one of them I may add). Why should people put up with shabby behaviour and cheap ass ownership???. Answer.....They should not, so public vilification is just the first lesson to be learn't.


This is just my opinion and only that.......
How are people supposed to find peolpe to become mentors etc. this forum is perfect for that. Unfortunatley we live in an age when people want things instantly and some have the abilty and means to get them. As a public front to falconry it is our responsibiltiy to foster good husbandry and practises on this forum. A joke is fine but by attacking people because they haven't done the proper ground work will only cause their birds more harm, not improve their skills. I agree it is wrong for people to go out and obtain their bird before they are ready but that is down to the person offering the bird for sale to quantify surely? Yes keep your standards high but instead of rubbishing other people for poor standards try to raise their standards in that way falconry as a whole can benefit.

[Ben C]

Cooperman and Trigger: I agree and basically we are singing from the same song sheet.

The train of thought I follow is this......How did falconers sort themselves out BEFORE the internet???....I can't see Magrovadato, McElroy, Glasier,Bert et al LOWERING themselves to this type of information format to improve themselves can you? WHY.....Because falconry is a hands on..... REAL experience sport/pastime /art...it's not about distance, its about contact. You cannot do this thing via the internet it's just stupid....and those that try are just.........well you get my drift.


Cooperman: As for finding mentors, well they need to try a bit BLOODY harder than the t'internet mate.

And for the record I am saying this nicely and in good humour.

[MattSpar]

And for the record I am saying this nicely and in good humour.

I agree with pretty much of what's been said here, but it's a sad indictment when we all feel it necessary to begin or end our posts with, "Oh and by the way, this is just my own opinion", and other eggshell-walking manouvres. I suppose that's the down side of not being face to face.

[Ben C]

Being face to face is irrelevent..........the facts of any argument still remain whether each party is intimidated or not.

I say this out of courtesy and not as a way of preventing a fight. Because Matt you know the real truth behind a lot of these arguments.

[CooperMan]

Fair enough BenC alot of it is hands on but then falconers in the past wrote books to pass on the information that they had learn't so people would hopefully improve the way they worked with their birds and to make themselves some money. Surely they would use the best way of getting and sending information to improve their falconry. There was an excellent thread about making a backpack mount for telemetry which I found on here. I intend to follow the instructions on there and fit one to give it ago. I know you cannot learn to fly a bird on the internet or from a book in my opinion, but they are coming because of an interest, lets encorage them. They only deserve a slating when they start giving bad advice to other people. As far as mentors are concerned this is a great place to start looking there are falconers from all over the world here and we can give info out about clubs etc even if we can't mentor somebody directly.
CM

[Maxwell]

Being face to face is irrelevent..........the facts of any argument still remain whether each party is intimidated or not.

I say this out of courtesy and not as a way of preventing a fight. Because Matt you know the real truth behind a lot of these arguments.

It appears to be an attitude thing then?

I thought this was a forum for 'discussion' as oposed to 'argument'

[CooperMan]

Because Matt you know the real truth behind a lot of these arguments.
The weather is to **** for lamping with the harris' tonight and we've been forced out of the front room while the wife and kids watch casualty and argue over who's sitting where.

[MattSpar]

Being face to face is irrelevent..........the facts of any argument still remain whether each party is intimidated or not.

I say this out of courtesy and not as a way of preventing a fight. Because Matt you know the real truth behind a lot of these arguments.

Mmm, I still much prefer to be able to see the person to whom I'm speaking. I'm aware some of my posts come across as unnecessarily harsh. That's my way when it comes to putting things into print. I'm actually a big softy (in my opinion).

[Ben C]

Cooperman: I am all for sharing knowledge but the BASICS need to be learnt BEFORE anyone enters a public forum.......thats just a 2 plus 2 surely???? If they havn't then thats their look out. They need to take responsibility for their actions, if they are so immature as to not like this then tough luck.

Maxwell: I will discuss anything with anyone......but only if they bring the full bearing of their effort and observation to the table.

[Ben C]

Mmm, I'm actually a big softy (in my opinion).

If I remember rightly matt you threatened to 'kick my head in' at the falconry fair. Why??? Because I disagreed with you about HH. If I remember rightly you said they were too easy to train and a waste of space.

[Ellis]

Have been following all these threads with interest........ as a newbie who hasn't got a bird (is that code for wa nker :) ) can't pretend there's two aspects of it.

Firsty this forum is extremely informative and you do realize the sense of responsibility and commitment that you need to take up the sport, via the feedback that individuals have on this forum.

Secondly the most condesending people to new falconers, are some of the people who usually have the most informative and interesting posts, oozing with info and good advice.

But i did cringe when i read Minty's thread !!! that could be any newbie, his main problem to me was his honesty and openess. I do not feel he did anything wrong in his approach or attitude to the sport, he only ever had good intentions and he was unfortunate to have this mixed with an element of bad luck.

If some of you were life guards, then you would be fab at teaching people to swim, but if they could only do dog paddle, you would s****** as they drowned.
Once they get in the water, no mater if you told them not to do it, for christ sake try and keep their heads above water instead of putting your foot on their head.

[Kevin Massey]

its also fair to say...if an indevidual intends taking up falconry they should'nt be looking towards the internet to teach them........

and it is always a matter of personal opinion....falconry is a personal thing, some time what works for one dont work for another ...

some times people make personal attack that seem harsh and out of place.but what should be considered is they may know these people, they may know backgrounds...they may have seen advice given and ignored,, and also may see the truth getting bent ....

just my own opinion :-)

[Kevin Massey]

Secondly the most condesending people to new falconers, are some of the people who usually have the most informative and interesting posts, oozing with info and good advice.

not knocking your post at all.....

how would a new wanna be falconer know it is good advice?...

thats when it explodes on times when some that do know better get into strife for pointing out that the info is not correct

[Hacker]

Well,
I think before making a comment on a thread statred by another falconer, novice, intermediate or experienced we should all think long and hard back to when we all started and how hard we found it without the benefit that technology gives us to be in contact with others of the same interests.
Just because some of us have put in x amount of years does not make us a good falconer.
You could of been practising falconry for years, albeit with errors, but who would of pointed this out if you are a solitary falconer.
Rather, we should all be trying to expand our knowledge and accept that no one man or woman can know all the answers.
We should all be trying to help one another, rather than point scoring.
Most threads where a question is asked is answered by " why on earth do you do that" type of response rather than "well you could try it this way or so and so, as i have found this to work"
Why when someone asks a question, they are looking for a positive answer do a lot of people give a negative reply?
Remember when you went to school, if everytime you asked the teacher a question she said, don`t be stupid, what are you talking about, do not ask me again until you know what you are talking about! ?

[MickeyDredd]

If I remember rightly matt you threatened to 'kick my head in' at the falconry fair. Why??? Because I disagreed with you about HH. If I remember rightly you said they were too easy to train and a waste of space.

Erm, wrong Matt i think Ben :roll: :lol:

[MattSpar]

If I remember rightly matt you threatened to 'kick my head in' at the falconry fair. Why??? Because I disagreed with you about HH. If I remember rightly you said they were too easy to train and a waste of space.

I have to correct this right away, and firmly too. I've been to the falconry fair once, two years ago, and have not, either there, or anywhere for that matter EVER offered to kick anyone's head in. In fact, I have never met you.You mistake me for someone else. Furthermore, if this is not an offensive post, I'd like to know what is. Perhaps you'd care to elucidate on what exactly the disagreement was supposed to be about, and the right person may then be identified.

[Kevin Massey]

Erm, wrong Matt i think Ben :roll: :lol:

quality :-)


hell of as lot of matts about aint there:rolleyes:

[OutFlying]

Brilliant Ben,
Completely different person :supz:

Jim.

[Kevin Massey]

i can see a massive appology cummin :-)

[Ben C]

Hacker:

You are right but when the questions are.....

1. Why does my harris scream
2. How big should my mews be
3. Why doesn't my hawks attack things
4. How heavy should it be
5. Why is it bating
6. What is best,,,a Harris or a Gos,
7. Oops it is dead...what should I do.
8. How does a rabbit bolt?


Then even someone like myself gets ****ed off...........

[MattSpar]

I'm waiting.

[Kevin Massey]

i can hear tapping feet ben

[MickeyDredd]

But i did cringe when i read Minty's thread !!! that could be any newbie, his main problem to me was his honesty and openess. I do not feel he did anything wrong in his approach or attitude to the sport, he only ever had good intentions and he was unfortunate to have this mixed with an element of bad luck.


You really need to read more of his earlier threads to build up the full picture of why a couple of people had a go at him, the criticism was not based solely on what was posted on one thread.

I still believe that any "Newbie" coming on here who has the patience to wait until they have the requisite experience BEFORE obtaining a hawk would receive full respect and help with any queries from the more experienced falconers. I believe that the fundamental underlying cause of most of the friction to be due to inexperienced people getting hawks before they are ready and then coming on here asking basic questions or asking for help when it goes horribly wrong and they dont have a clue what to do about it.

[Ben C]

MATTSPAR: I drop down on my knees and beg your forgiveness...I have mixed you up with another Matt.....I PUBLICALLY ADMIT THIS...........I am a TWONK and a BUFFOON.............ALWAYS.


(I wondered why you were typing things I agreed with.......I have been confused for about a month now PMSL)


SORRY SORRY SORRY. Mattspar.

[Kevin Massey]

good point that mick, also why not read first....ok say hello what they intend then read the posts...there is a very good search tool here but it looks like no one uses it "new arivals thet is"

[Pitbull]

I have to correct this right away, and firmly too. I've been to the falconry fair once, two years ago, and have not, either there, or anywhere for that matter EVER offered to kick anyone's head in. In fact, I have never met you.You mistake me for someone else. Furthermore, if this is not an offensive post, I'd like to know what is. Perhaps you'd care to elucidate on exactly the disagreement was supposed to be about, and the right person may then be identified.


well thats disappointing, thats totally changed my way of thinking of you...:supz:

[OutFlying]

Hello Ben,
Please can I have the recipe for humble pie :grin:

Jim.

[MickeyDredd]

Jesus Ben,

I thought it was just Friday nights you were rat-arsed pmsl

[Ben C]

:oops: :oops: :oops:


You bunch of ******s....you could have told me Via PM.......

Mattspar I am sorry...........hell you live and learn

[Kevin Massey]

that is quality........ i am printing that off for the display board at the falconry fair :-)

[MattSpar]

MATTSPAR: I drop down on my knees and beg your forgiveness...I have mixed you up with another Matt.....I PUBLICALLY ADMIT THIS...........I am a TWONK and a BUFFOON.............ALWAYS.


(I wondered why you were typing things I agreed with.......I have been confused for about a month now PMSL)


SORRY SORRY SORRY. Mattspar.

That's fine. I accept that entirely. No hard feelings, I assure you.

[Ben C]

Kiss my plums Jollyboy.........


Once again.....sorry Mattspar..........................


however who can tell me the name of the person I was confusing him with??? It was definately Matt something.

[OutFlying]

It was just plain Matt.

[MattSpar]

well thats disappointing, thats totally changed my way of thinking of you...:supz:

For the better, I hope.

[Ben C]

OF: You said this at the time....and no one believed you.......:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Kevin Massey]

It was just plain Matt.


is he a forum member even?

[Ben C]

NO!!!! And he should be.

[OutFlying]

OF: You said this at the time....and no one believed you.......

Ben :goodman: ,
You will learn eventually - I'm always right :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :grin:

Jim.

ps How's the socks going..........................

[Ben C]

Ben :goodman: ,
You will learn eventually - I'm always right :rolleyes: :grin:

Jim.

ps How's the socks going..........................

****** off...............................one day mate one day :supz:

[CooperMan]

If some of you were life guards, then you would be fab at teaching people to swim, but if they could only do dog paddle, you would s****** as they drowned.
Once they get in the water, no mater if you told them not to do it, for christ sake try and keep their heads above water instead of putting your foot on their head.
Well said. I know BC that people shouldn't get birds without knowing the basics, I hear it at displays all the time. Ive got a Barn Owl in the kitchen or I'm getting a Harris Hawk to keep in the spare room but we shouldn't just let them get on with it, is all I'm saying. We can't save them all but even if we help one person onto the right track with a bit of patients then surely we have done the right thing. Unfortunatley its a sad reflection on society that we should try to deal with rather than critisis (or how ever you spell it) if we shun them it makes us as bad as them for getting the bird in the first place when we are in a position of knowledge and hopefully able to help. If the bird dies after our best efforts then at least we tried.
PS that the last time tonight I go for a fag half way through typing a reply. Ive just missed loads

[MattSpar]

[QUOTE=CooperMan] We can't save them all but even if we help one person onto the right track with a bit of patients then surely we have done the right thing. /QUOTE]

I, for one agree entirely. I do try to do this, but I'm well aware I sometimes lack patience. It's a bad habit of mine.
PS. Funnily enough, I too go outside for a cigar now and then, and have to catch up.

[MickeyDredd]

Cooperman

Your sentiment is well-meant but sadly with "these sorts" you tend to find that they will not take a blind bit of notice what you say.

Here's a classic example for you (note: this person is not an IFF member)

A local guy, ex-shooter wants to get a hawk. A mate of mine agrees to mentor him and ropes me in as well to an extent. The guy wants a FHH to fly at partridge! We tell him that it is a totally unsuitable hawk for the quarry. He goes quiet on his intended quarry but still says that a FHH is the hawk for him. Set him up with a good friend of mine and orders the hawk.
We advise him about ferrets etc, "Christ I'm not getting ferrets they're stinking creatures, i'll just come out with you guys and use yours". Alarm bells go off once more so I step back out of the frame - the guy does not take good advice or responsibility for providing his hawk with quarry.

Gets his hawk, borrows my mates bow perch and my hood, he still has the bow perch 18 months later!!

Flies her for the season, total game in the bag 2 rabbits and 1 pheasant.

This spring, "I really fancy a Gos". We all repeatedly tell him, do not get a gos you are not ready. September comes and he buys a male gos, second hand bird! The seller tells him it should be ready to fly free in about 8 weeks - he tells us he has the gos 2 weeks after getting it and that he will fly it free when it is ready in 6 weeks time. He actually thought that getting a gos flying free was something you could set your watch by!!

Last week got a phone call to say the bird was listless on his fist after flying it so he had taken it straight home and given it a couple of chicks, he nearly killed the poor thing it was so low.
It will no doubt be dead soon enough.

Hope that sad tale illustrates my point for you.

He is not the only one out there I assure you!

[Pitbull]

i think there are some people who post, have already made there mind up before hand hoping they will get agreement, and if not get upset and just carry on.

[Ben C]

Come on folks lets get real:

Who in their right mind would go on the internet for help?? Come one, it's lazy at the very least........I can't see an entomologist or a wheelwright or a butcher or an astronaught going on-line for help. So why a falconer......cheap excuse if you ask me.

[CooperMan]

I know exactly what you mean MD and I realise there are some complete morons out there who will never learn but all I'm saying is even if we get the same stupid question for the 36th time on the forum we should be patient and answer it and try to guide in the same way as the first. It may be that person that listens and takes it on board. If we just attack them they may do a runner and kill the bird in the process.

[Pitbull]

Come on folks lets get real:

Who in their right mind would go on the internet for help?? Come one, it's lazy at the very least........I can't see an entomologist or a wheelwright or a butcher or an astronaught going on-line for help. So why a falconer......cheap excuse if you ask me.


obviously depends on what help they need..but yeah it cant teach u anything

[CooperMan]

obviously depends on what help they need..but yeah it cant teach u anything
It can teach you things though, it is a unique medium just look at the back pack harness thread, prehaps we should come up with more things like that it was suggested somewhere and even if its as simple as putting on a leather bewit for a bell instead of using a cable tie or make a hood then somebody could learn something. The more experienced ones amogst us would realise it wasn't aimed at them, and wouldn't take it personally (I hope) and those with less experience would learn a new skill

[Ben C]

on the forum we should be patient and answer it and try to guide in the same way as the first. It may be that person that listens and takes it on board. If we just attack them they may do a runner and kill the bird in the process.

But only if they have tried hard in the first place.

[Neanderthal]

Hi all,
Before I start may I say that I know no one on this forum and have no grudges, favourites, etc
Please allow me to introduce myself - I am a solitary falconer - solitary for 25 years now and still flying birds. In the past I have flown and hunted with most of the broadwings and some of the shortwings and flown but not hunted one longwing (wrong type of country and I would not be told.....). At present I fly a FRT and have done for the last 8 seasons. She is 8 years old. Apart from a brief excursion with a friends female ferrug she is the only bird I have flown in these 8 years and have successfully caught quarry with her on one kill outings all this time. She is my 3rd red.
I like to think I know a little bit about birds of prey.

I am new to computers in the last couple of years and discovered this forum some months ago. I have devoured it word by word and thread by thread. I have learned loads even though my library is comprehensive. Some of the threads are truly liberating in their observation and explanation and in that sense this has been a great voyage of discovery into my first love falconry; at the same time it has been a great way of confirming my passion and for underlining my own thoughts. I have grown in falconry through what I have read here. Thank-you.

I have also learned or sussed out who knows what - and I have read a lot. I have learned who can be learned from.

I have also been concerned with the recent threads, of which this is the follow on to one, where a lack of information results in a catastrophic breakdown of logic. That is the risk of a forum such as this. When RATZ had his initial problem (which was not clearly explained) my immediate thought was bird too low. This is a safety position when in doubt. Bird too fat - cant fly for a while. Bird too low - might not live to fly again. It was difficult to find much sense in what followed that original post, although the usual regular considered responses did come from the same thoughtful minds who do exist on this forum.
It is a biblical wheat and chaff problem - how does the beginner sort it out.

It seems to me that the solution is simple. People are leaping to attack or defend others whom they may or may not know without knowing their full posting history on the site. The net result of this is the breakdown of threads as has happened in the last 24hrs. a thread or response exists only in the context of previous threads or responses by that person and as such some people do deserve the responses they get and often deserve more than they get. There is so much good information given which is ignored - that is the tragedy here. For people, for birds, for falconry.

Read posts properly. Consider who wrote them. Consider what is written. Consider what you know. Consider your response. Respond.

This is a priceless source of knowledge even for those who have knowledge because you can not know it all. Please don't spoil it by missing the point. The point being FALCONRY in all her beautiful and varied guises....

Going for a beer. Cheers

[Hells99]

If I may come in here as a 'newbie' (sans bird) I'm not ready for one - there is a lot of , for the want of a better word, special words in falconry and that sort of thing you only learn about by asking what seem to be dumb questions. I know you've all heard it all before but once you must have said 'Sorry what does that mean?'.
The other point is that we may have read something and thought it would be worthwile asking the question of people who 'do' it every day as opposed to 'writing' about it. We don't intend to irritate you, and don't alwasy understand that you've answered that question a zillion times already. It's a bit like being a teacher and teaching 11 year olds each year - you say the same things over and over (understandably gets wearing).
A snappy reply tends to stop you asking any more questions tho.

Helen

[Ben C]

Read posts properly. Consider who wrote them. Consider what is written. Consider what you know. Consider your response. Respond.



Excellent...so long as you know how to judge, consider and think about such things.....and that must be done hands on!!!!.......why this is such an issue I cannot fathom.

[Ben C]

If I may come in here as a 'newbie' (sans bird) I'm not ready for one - there is a lot of , for the want of a better word, special words in falconry and that sort of thing you only learn about by asking what seem to be dumb questions. I know you've all heard it all before but once you must have said 'Sorry what does that mean?'.
The other point is that we may have read something and thought it would be worthwile asking the question of people who 'do' it every day as opposed to 'writing' about it. We don't intend to irritate you, and don't alwasy understand that you've answered that question a zillion times already. It's a bit like being a teacher and teaching 11 year olds each year - you say the same things over and over (understandably gets wearing).
A snappy reply tends to stop you asking any more questions tho.

Helen


I am sorry but that is just one long whinge.......if you feel this way tough luck...as far as I can tell falconery is a hard road of learning......I would rather work for it than be spoon fed.

[Hells99]

Then I'm grateful to the people who have bothered to answer any questions I have asked and wish you good luck and happiness, BenC.

BR

Helen

[Ben C]

Helen

I mean no malice but come on........how many hawks and birds do you own??

Loads I expect and still you think that people should tolerate simple answers and questions without any prep???????

[HawkNorth]

Falconry Forum is the best thats happen to falconry
and its also the worst

[Kevin Massey]

Falconry Forum is the best thats happen to falconry
and its also the worst

in what way on either ?

[The Ninja]

Come on folks lets get real:
Who in their right mind would go on the internet for help??

Funnily enough MILLIONS of people EVERY day of the week !
Weird huh, go tell them they are all wrong !

:-)

[Kevin Massey]

Funnily enough MILLIONS of people EVERY day of the week !
Weird huh, go tell them they are all wrong !

:-)


so where is there input?.....why does it always seem so lacking?

[Kevin Massey]

be honiest how many accual posters are there?

[Hells99]

Helen

I mean no malice but come on........how many hawks and birds do you own??

Loads I expect and still you think that people should tolerate simple answers and questions without any prep???????

Ben, as I said in my post, I don't own a bird because I'm not yet ready for one, I am still trying to learn enough (not only on here but from books and by doing voluntary work at a centre). I do use other sources but sometimes a thread on here makes me question something I've either read or heard and that's wehn I ask what may sometimes seem like a basic question. I'm usually after clarification from people who may have a different interpretation. As I said, if this irritates you and others, then I'm sorry.

Helen

[Kevin Massey]

does anyone ever read the "all posts by "user" ?
and all topics started by "user"?

interesting reading there alone

[The Ninja]

so where is there input?.....why does it always seem so lacking?

Hiya JB,

I was on about millions of people using the Internet for help/advice, not this forum.

:-)

[CooperMan]

This is just the point 99 you shouldn't have to appologies we are on the computer for heavens sake even if somebody is irritated by your question they don't have to stop their facial expressions just type a civil response, you have asked the question because you want to know something not because you want to be a pain. The least we can do is answer it.

[Hells99]

Many thanks Cooperman.

[Kevin Massey]

Hiya JB,

I was on about millions of people using the Internet for help/advice, not this forum.

:-)

ok soz....it was an interesting statement though...

a lot of sites and subsequent advertisers that show on some sited really value the hits a website attracts... forums however are very different
it is the content that is the selling factor for them

kev

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Im sorry Benc, I dont want to be offensive, but do you think all on the forum that have never flown a bird should either never ask questions or just sign off for good?
Why on earth should you not be allowed to ask questions? No matter how stupid? Its not the questions thats matters, but the actions!!!!
If someone completely dissregard advice given and does the wrong thing again and again, I understand frustration and anger, and I will myself back up a good "telling off" but to not even give the person a chanse the first bloody post on the thread and not many on the forum!!??
What does people (not personaly meant) hope to achive with their rude and offencive posts? Chase people off? Feel good and matcho in the other forum members eyes eyes?
It cant be that they are trying to help a bird, as it have the totaly opposit effect!
I also think that we are talking different people and situation, I think we all agreed on that sometimes you do get angry and frustrated with sk. idiots on here, but Im talking people who ask for a pice of advice and without any decent reply get told they are a discrase to falconry, we are also talking about people WHO HAVE ADMITTED they feel UNCOMFERTEBLE to post on here! You have to agree that that is not good!!??
Ore people who never posted because they are scared to, people whos first post is close to as* licking because they are scared to get ripped to pieces.
It reminds me of a pack of wolfes, the young ones climb in the hiraki and will defend their climbing on the "pecking order" against any younger wolfes, petrified they will over take them.
It is ofthen the newbis who been on here for a while who will give slaughtering posts, or back up the "big boys" when they do it.
I think its a bit embarassing sometime, Im not having a go at people who give constuctive critesism, or telling off a idiot that clearly is a nutter, and no, we should not walk on glass because we are scared to say anything, but it should work both ways!!
No one should be scared to post!

[Neanderthal]

Ben C and everyone else - there is so much KNOWLEDGE on this forum; so many prepared to help or share or give. It all comes from hands on and repeated learning and intelligent observation and mistakes. Ain't no substitute for hands on learning. !st time it bates you panic.....100th time it bates you might think to turn away from the window...... learning begins.

This forum is a goldmine. Listen to the people with hands on knowledge and disregard the rest.

[ColdZero]

i haven't read this whole thread...but remarkably i agree with benc. But not quite as harsh. If someone has come here, ignored sound advice then gotten a bird anyway...they deserve castration. However, if someone has done all they can, then had a problem with a bird and just want support they are doing the right thing. This is where i have a problem, many snobs will pounce, but this is just doing more harm. There are far too many variables to give a simple answer, but i certainly understand why so many people get a bollocking, including myself. You just need to accept that this forum is here for people to ask questions, and there are FAR more extremely **** poor excuses for falconers knocking about than you realise. You should take it as a blessing that one of these people would come on here, then atleast theres a small chance of helping.

I can't make this next point without dropping names, but EHS has been scared away from this forum now. He is now a lost course. If his original questions were dealt with politely, he wouldn't have a bird today...or there is a small chance. His harris hawk has ATTACKED a pedestrian, injuring them and made them bleed. This is extremely serious, imagine how this could make falconry look. I won't go on..Is it fair to put any blame on the foum for this, maybe a tiny amount. But what is fair to say is that fair too many chances to prevent this are thrown away.

If we weren't all sat behind computer screens i bet every penny i own there wouldn't be any need for mods, people who meet face to face aren't usually so fast to insult.

Except Matt lol, did he have shortish black hair ben?

[MickeyDredd]

I can't make this next point without dropping names, but EHS has been scared away from this forum now. He is now a lost course. If his original questions were dealt with politely, he wouldn't have a bird today...or there is a small chance. His harris hawk has ATTACKED a pedestrian, injuring them and made them bleed. This is extremely serious, imagine how this could make falconry look. I won't go on..Is it fair to put any blame on the foum for this, maybe a tiny amount. But what is fair to say is that fair too many chances to prevent this are thrown away.


CZ

EHS is a classic example. He was always a lost cause, the fact that he came on this forum did not make a blind bit of difference and the fact that his hawk has attacked someone merely reinforces the problems the sport is now facing. No matter how his questions were answered he would still have got a hawk - please read the example I gave earlier in this thread, these people do exist and there are many of them.
With regard to him being scared away from the forum (presumably from the resulting responses to his posts) i believe you were less than complementary about him on a thread recently (yesterday?) so hopefully you include yourself in the "blame" for him leaving, if indeed you are blaming the forum or its members for his hawks behaviour.

[ColdZero]

the huge difference being i had seen everything before i posted, not just assumed. But i understand, my point was that if there is even a small chance of changing someones mind its worth it. How can anyone say for sure what EHS would of done, but i admit its a terrible example.

[MickeyDredd]

How can anyone say for sure what EHS would of done, .

Because like I say, he is a classic example.

It is not difficult to spot them, the pattern is there for all to see.

[The Ninja]

ok soz....it was an interesting statement though...

a lot of sites and subsequent advertisers that show on some sited really value the hits a website attracts... forums however are very different
it is the content that is the selling factor for them

kev


No probs Kev, cheers m8.

Steve.

[The Ninja]

Couple of things:

1) Cheers Minty, you started all of this. *grin*
2) The Mods have been mentioned a couple of times for not locking down/deleting posts when we all go off on a ramble. Is it not better that we have all spent time on this post moaning,whinging,getting our point across than having it across a number of different subjects. (apologies if everyone has been doing the same on the other subjects, I'm just back in & this is the 1st one I've read.) (& yes, it would be better if there wasn't any moaning at all, that's not likely to happen though.) It was very easily seen from the 1st page what was being covered, if somebody just wanted to read about birds they could have ignored the thread.
3) It has for the most part been an enjoyable argument which hasn't gotten too silly.

Cheers folks, have a pleasant weekend. (well, whats left of it)

:lol:

[Minty]

OK, IMO some good posts on here but i thought i would tell you i have a string of Newbie Falconers who have PM'd or Mailed me saying 'I hope your post makes a difference as i tend to watch and try and get info instead of asking'
They are all a long those lines, everyone of them. I have said to go ahead and ask but none so far have.
For those 'Please ask as it seems that there are more good than ******s on here (yes! W*****S, before you need to go moaning about the language and whinging to a mod).
They all hope that this post will give them confidence to post so 90% of you help them and 10% of you 'Shut up' and go and play with the sheep!

[MattSpar]

To any beginner I would say, "Ask, ask, and ask again", if you feel the need. You may not always get the kind of answer you expect, or like, for that matter. Some answers, including mine, will sometimes seem brusque, harsh, or derisory. Sometimes all three. Speaking for myself, that's the way I write. I'm too damned old to change now. Besides, if people don't like what I write, it's simple. Ignore it. Most on here are only too willing to help, myself included, but falconry isn't fishing, nor stamp collecting. It makes you pay heavily for a seemingly trivial mistake, and I believe in plain speech. I, for one, have no wish to put off any beginner wishing to ask questions. So don't be reticent. Ask.

[Jack Merlin]

To any beginner I would say, "Ask, ask, and ask again", if you feel the need. You may not always get the kind of answer you expect, or like, for that matter. Some answers, including mine, will sometimes seem brusque, harsh, or derisory. Sometimes all three. Speaking for myself, that's the way I write. I'm too damned old to change now. Besides, if people don't like what I write, it's simple. Ignore it. Most on here are only too willing to help, myself included, but falconry isn't fishing, nor stamp collecting. It makes you pay heavily for a seemingly trivial mistake, and I believe in plain speech. I, for one, have no wish to put off any beginner wishing to ask questions. So don't be reticent. Ask.

Without pointing the finger, I would suggest that there is such a thing as plain good manners.

A forum has been described as a man's house. That house belongs to the moderator/s. We are guests here and guests are usually expected to behave.

If I am in a man's house and one of his fellow guests insults me, that reflects on my host. We are judged by the company we keep.

Frankly, I would think long and hard whether I wanted the company of any "friend" who would allow others to insult me under his roof.

It is one thing to be outspoken and quite another to be rude. It is question a having respect for our fellow men and aspiring falconers.

I moderate a small Yahoo group (MatureFalconers). There is only one rule, "Immature conduct is not permitted". It seems to work pretty well. But don't get the idea that immaturity has anything to do with age! I know some pretty childish pensioners and at least one very mature five year old.

[Tim Laycock]

I know people filled with wisdom who can behave very childishly<g>
Throwing you off lists for defending them and the like!

[Minty]

Here is just one example of a PM i have had of many. I tried to get him to post it but he has asked me if i could hoping that it will do some good.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Minty
Just read a good many of the posts on your thread.
I have to say as an out and out newbie I undoubtedly fall within the category of 'willing to view and pick the bones for the info I need but unwilling to post for fear of the third degree and general hassle'.
Anyway you made your point well but will it do any good ???? I hope so.
All the best
Malcolm

[SPZ]

Hi
I'm a newbie... I've made a few comments so far... I'll ask as I need, but I'm also capable of giving back in equal measure when the guys make unfair comments. All newbies will make mistakes...and will hopefully learn from them and from the more experienced guys. But if I ask what seems to be a stupid question to someone more experienced and some smart arse makes some rediculous remark, i will tell him what a **** i think he is...and i won't mince my words either!

[Jack Merlin]

I know people filled with wisdom who can behave very childishly<g>
Throwing you off lists for defending them and the like!

Which just goes to show how careful people must be in the choice of the company they keep.

[Jack Merlin]

Hi
I'm a newbie... But if I ask what seems to be a stupid question to someone more experienced and some smart arse makes some rediculous remark, i will tell him what a **** i think he is...and i won't mince my words either!

Then you have learnt nothing. How do you know it is a ridiculous remark? You have already admitted you are a newbie. Why not ask him, politely, to explain himself? At the least, you will learn how the mind of a fool works.<g>

There was a time when suggesting that the world was round was also considered a ridiculous remark. But then someone asked the man to explain. Result? Saying the earth is flat won't get you any brownie points these days!

[Tr1gger]

Well said :supz:

[Scruff]

we're probably going round in circles here, there will always be folks here who will be too quick to judge and scare off other users and there will always be those willing to help in any way they can to improve a situation they have had experience in.

But suggesting that the internet is a short cut, or a cheap easy route into learning falconry is insane; its an additional educational tool! its not just newbies that have questions! if you think people know everything about falconry or learned everything in falconry from books / mentor ; you are very wrong! you need as much help and advice as you can get. .. this is a valuable resource for situations that come up , I mean even you BenC asked for advice a while back about a bird of yours which needed to go to the vet, should you not have asked that question>? course you should, and any newbie or experienced member should be able to ask questions also.

I agree with neanderthal and ATFHB. It benefitted me reading the forum intensively and discovering those who to seem reasonable and experienced from those whose posts I didnt have any interest in reading.

but thats just what I think.

I think everyone gets annoyed about the posts where we discover a bird has been acquired without the proper knowledge but its how the falconers on here respond to this post that shows the real character, inwardly I may want to scream at that person, but outwardly, I'd be trying to sort out a bad situation.

[KYJelly]

crickey charlie....:shock: good job i have got a season experience or woul dget a slating.......right off to explore

[Tim Laycock]

Which just goes to show how careful people must be in the choice of the company they keep.

Indeed<g>

[GogBoy]

Replying to early posts on this thread. Has anybody noticed that some members have answered a totally different post? Is the thread about methods of obtaining information or about being derogatory about novice members asking 'silly questions' as a way of cross referencing what they'e found elsewhere?
How else did they do it Ben C? All the falconers u have name dropped must have unwittingly killed birds along the way, even the most caring and loving falconer or austringer will suffer a loss somewhere along the line through misadventure, but surely that is normal? the law of averages?

I can understand u being ****ed @ people asking the regular stupid lines, but
every source helps! Someone mentioned that relying on the internet to teach you everything about being a certain trade is rediculous! Its an unwritten rule that hands on experience is never bettered! I am an Industrial electrician and without being taught how to test voltages I would have electrocuted meself long before now!
If we go back to the origins of British falconry and hawking, then what happened to sway falconers away from sewing birds' eyelids shut and using hoods?
I know from research that the hood and Saker's were brought to Britain by Richard the Lionheart. And how did i learn this? . . . . . WHY! through the internet of course! lol

Stop being so jumpy and give people a chance to explain their request and situation b4 u stamp the enthusiasm out of them! How else did you guys start? What course/s have you attended? I know Your bird is the same age as mine Ben, and you have had way more head of game than I have, but have you caught pheasant with a female Harris? Has Cody taken fur and feather?
I know I should expect a backlash for this post, but that just goes to prove my point.