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GriffMJ
10-01-2006, 06:16 PM
Hi All

I have opened this thread as a result of what has come out of discussion from other threads regarding hooding and problems with raptors being made to the hood.

The aim of this thread is to establish what is a "correct fit" and what is not.

As commercial hood maker I am not able to see the fit of one of my hoods in person the majority of the time...so I have to rely on the client falconer to be the judge. I always ask for a photo(s), if its possible, so that I can see the hood on the raptor and judge for myself when I receive it ... to see if the hood was adequate in fit. Another thing I will do is, when possible, send 2-3 hoods bracketting the size range for the raptor that judge will be correct according to its weight and species.

Another difficulty is the amount of Hybrids there are and the variation in shape and size of head that this brings.... its often quite difficult to judge and get right first or second time.

If a falconer brings the raptor to me for a hood fitting I like to try 2-3 hoods onto the bird and let it sit for 10-15 mins. This allows me to judge the comfort of the hood.... things that I look for, for example:-

The hood may look as though it fits the falcon when put on fresh..... and it might not bother the falcon for the first five minutes....

1. If the hood is slighlty too tight and is causing a pressure point somewhere then you will start to see the falcon scratching to hood excessivley.....

2. It might start to nod forward and shake its head as if something was pinching that nape of its neck

3. The bird might start open its gape (Yawn) and shake its head as if something was trapped in the corner of its mouth.

The above are some observations that are tell tale signs ...I will describe others as I get further into the thread.

Sign of a good fit.....after a short time in the hood or extended....
1. No movement can be detected by waving your hand in front & under the front of the hooded falcon
2. Settles quickly after hooding
3. the bird will start preening...
4. will rouse.....
5. Will sit queitly on the block and fluff up
6. Put a foot up
7. Will tuck its head in to sleep
8. Have a bomb go off next to it and keep steady!
**Note: Some falcons will naturally "star chase" for a short period after hooding but soon settle, or after being picked up from the block in the hood.

Happy falcon in hood..... (one of my Dutch hoods with covered soft parts of the gape BO)
http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/hooded_arnold.jpg

Sign of a badly fitting or fitted hood:-

Observation when braces closed:
1. Raptor will almost immediatly try to get the hood off.. (extreme)
2. Will get vocal and panic lurching backwards... (extreme)
3. Moisture "circles" start to form on the outside of the hood after a very short period of time and they will appear as perfect circles (the falcon may appear not to be in discomfort) **Note: On a cold day you will get condensation in a fitting hood as the air temp on the outside of the hood is colder ...but it wont be a perfect circle it will appear as damp patches.
4. Fidgeting... not settling and scratching at the hood.

Observation when taking the hood off:
5. On taking the hood off you see clear but jelly like substance on the interior of the hood where the eye's have been after a prolonged period of being in the hood (the falcon may appear not to be in discomfort)

Signs of Hood shy'ness
1. On approach of the falconer with hood visible the raptor is vocal and bates away. (does not behave in the same way when falconer approaches without the hood visible). (Extreme or young bird)
2. When on the glove and the falconer produces the hood, the raptor bates and is vocal (Extreme or young bird)
3. Will try and dodge the hood persistently when hooding. (Mild or young bird) ** Note: bold colours in the hood or white seam lining strips can also make some raptors do this...solution is to darken the hood interior with a permanent marker lightly or purchase a hood with a one colour interior.
4. To be continued (as i think of them or you tell me them)

Hood makers around the world have their own patterns as well as the commercial patterns that are supplied with the various blocks that can be purchased now, a common hood block is the Ron Rollins hood block.... this is an excellent block to make hoods from if its an original block. There are badly produced copies as so often seen .... some copies of this particular block type are copies of copies and end up being badly out of shape and therefore a poor hood will result. I have some copy blocks and i have put them against the original blocks ...and you can visibly see the difference in shape. Ofcourse some original blocks are out of shape (not symmetrical) a good example is the Rollins size 11 or the Tait size 15 but this is compounded by poor copies and therefore not fit for use ....any hood made from these copies will have one side bigger than the other.

Another problem is patterns that are circulated...most people will receive a pattern that has been photocopied X amount of times and as a result will bare little relation to the orginal in fit....classic example is the Rollins pattern again.... they dont actually fit the original blocks.... I have a pattern that was sent to me by Ron Rollins himself (size 10L) ..I put it against the commercial patterns that Hawkmasters send out with their blocks....and its not the same.... and Ron has not changed his pattern. Thats is not to say that the patterns cant be used.... its just an observation of comparrison.

Falconers taste in hoods change over time.... if we go back 30-40 years in the UK, Phillip Glasier hoods were vogue and the Jack Mavro' pattern were issued in his books.... two totally different hood types and fit. Both falconers would have had their point of view on fit and what was best.... if we go back 100 years.. we have the hoods of Adriaan Mollen and his son.... considered to be the best fit of the day ... but all patterns are now not considered when making hoods now. Personally I think your hard pushed to get a better fitting Anglo Indian that a Jack Mavro..... but the modern falconer wont consider it because of its "look".... is that right.... we shall see! Here is a Jack Mavro pattern Anglo Indian on a Peregrine Tiercel....

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/Clients/NeilPT2.JPG

This is probably one of the best fitting Anglo Indian patterns...yet it seems modern falconers will not use this pattern hood for cosmetic reasons.... comments I have had are ...."its too pointy" and "its like a triangle" .... no mention of how well it fits the falcon...but it doesnt look good!

*** Jack Mavro Anglo Indian patterns can be found in his books "Hawk for the Bush" & "Falcon in the field"... modern editions of the books are cheaply available from Western Sporting publications in the US and also available from falconry book sellers here in the UK. You can also buy ready made hoods from me!

Another important part of the hood pattern is the beak opening... the gape. This "shape" varies considerably over time ....from the Mollen slot for example to the key hole type shape that we have today.... and if we take both examples used in the Dutch hood.... they both serve the same purpose to keep light out but have different levels of risk and comfort to the falcon. There are many issues that come with this simple device ...for example ....in North America some hood makers like to have the top of the beak opening "BO" placed at the top of the cere whereas here (in the UK) we like to have to top of the BO a good distance away from that point. Some hoodmakers will cover the soft parts of the beak and hide them away in the hood bringing the edge of the BO over the hardest part of the beak and others (myself included) will try to expose the soft parts. The latter being the harder method but the best in most opinions that I have come across....

This is an example of an excellent dutch hood gape.... but very hard to get it exactly right without trimming back with the falcon present....
http://www.merlinfalconry.com/images/opening.jpg
and here is my version on Sabs
http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/examples/DutchMBlock1.JPG


Sign of a poor fitting Beak opening:-

Obsevations:-
1. Able to to see motion of hand waved in front whilst in the hood..
2. Able to jump off the block...and able to jump back on again...
3. Turning on the block as if chasing light...
4. Excessive "Star Chasing"

Physical:-
1. Pressure marks on soft part of the gape when unhooded...
2. Chaffing marks on the cere or nares...
3. Bleeding from any part of the gape...

I would say this, being a hoodmaker, but its worth your while buying 3-4 different hoods of the same size for your raptor if you can do it ....and 1 of those will fit it like a glove and the others can be used as back ups. I have made a few for my own falcon and have established a working hood and a travelling hood (wider eye bowl and looser fitting in the neck)...

A difficult raptor to get right is the Goshawk.... males dont seem to be a problem but for some reason the female is a tough nut to crack. I am still looking for that perfect pattern for her... i think I have found it.... but I am just trying t perfect it at the moment. The best fitting block that I have in the dutch pattern is the "Tait" ... I can only describe it as a German Helmet shape.... but the pattern I am trying to master is a Pakistani hood specifically for the Gos and its the best fit I have seen for a Gos.

I have blabbered on enough here for the time being....it would be interesting to hear and see some examples of good fitting AND poor fitting hoods and general opinions on fit.

REMEMBER: The hood is the most important part of a falconers kit.... look after it.




Tim Laycock
10-01-2006, 06:25 PM
Good thread Griff. :D

UKJay74
10-01-2006, 06:37 PM
good thread gives me some pointers hood fitting :D

Biarmicus
10-01-2006, 07:07 PM
Excellent Thread Griff.

I don't mind the looks of the Jack Mavro Anglo-Indian hood on the peregrine (I think the style of the hood complements the bird).

I go on your website quite alot and enjoy looking at the different styles and patterns of hoods you create.

When I obtain my first bird I will most definitely be referring back to this thread!


Brittney

Sean
10-01-2006, 08:18 PM
after reading this i went out a tried rolf with the hood, first time in ages, as i gave up on it. after casting him over xmas i know it doesnt fit him. but im gonna use it to get him use to. i was making a little hole in my fist and rolf was diving in through the gape hole to get at it, i put it on and he fliped it off lol. do use think hes close it it? he doesnt seem to mind it near his chest or anything, problem is when im trying to put it on, hes looking down the hole i leave in the glove for food, that its hard to get on lol

ParaButeo78
10-01-2006, 08:24 PM
Excellent thread Griff!
Found it very informative and I have saved it to my pc for future reference.
I do plan to hood my bird(s). Once I have them.
Would like to have to Mavrogodato pattern, if that's possible. Don't find aesthetics as important as a comfortable fit!
Maybe I can get a Dutch hoodmaker to make me a hood from that pattern. It won't be pratical ordering a hood from you, sadly, as I'm in the Netherlands. The cost of shipping multiple hoods for a good fit would be a bit high.

ChrisJ
10-01-2006, 10:07 PM
Thanks for the detailed article Griff. Very useful indeed.
Summarising, I think it would be fair to say that money spent on a well fitting hood is money wisely spent.

Chris

Minty
10-01-2006, 10:31 PM
I find you never quite know if its done too tight but some of your points is a great help:supz:

Finnish
10-01-2006, 11:51 PM
Very good thread Griff. Well done...


Finnish

Dude
11-01-2006, 07:23 AM
thanks Griff, it was very informative!

Dan.

GriffMJ
11-01-2006, 12:29 PM
Due to the limit of 1000 words to each section of this thread I will carry this on on my website. I am going to go the "whole hog" here and put in as much as I can to help out budding hood makers and the novice falconer. I will put up a link here where forum members can see the progress of my endevours prior to it going "live" on my website.

I am calling it "Anatomy for the hood" and I will try and cover as much as I can on all aspects of the hood & hooding. I dont claim to know it all and I stand to be corrected by my piers....but .... in the absence of anything tangeable on the web then I think it might be a start and a help to those that are interested :)

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/Anatomy_0.htm


This is Sabs travelling hood.... some would say that because the gape edges cross the soft parts that it is not a good fit.... he will sit happily in this hood for as long as needed....its got bags of room around the eye and because is a slightly looser fit than his working hood causes no pressure points on the gape.... note the flaps sitting close to the "lores" coming down from the Cere another way to keep the beak opening light tight.
http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/Fit/sabs.JPG

Following on from my first bit ....here is a picture showing examples of a hood that fits (left) that been on for 2 hours in a a cold enviroment.... note the irregular damp patch on the out side. The other hood (right) had been on a Sakeret for 5 mins in the summer and it was evident that the eye panels were to close to the eye...although not touching they were still too close... note the perfect circle.
http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/Fit/Damp.JPG

Moses
11-01-2006, 07:53 PM
griff one of the best threads for a long time mate

just saw it for the first time

Jack Merlin
14-01-2006, 07:03 PM
I'm a bit confused. I have heard of the Rollins hood blocks but nobody makes any mention of different blocks for hawks and falcons. Are they claiming both have similar head shapes?

I have several hoods here for my goshawks made by top hood makers. All apparently "fit" according to your guidlines. But so far as I am concerned, only one of the hoods fits reasonably well. The others all pitch forward when I go to pull the braces and are a real pain to get to sit correctly on the hawk's head. When they do (after much swearing) they look fine. I have questioned the makers about their blocks, and whether they are falcon blocks rather than accipiter blocks, but they have all evaded the question!

Back in the days when I made my own hoods, I would find a hood that fitted, take it apart and make a pattern from it. These patterns were then enlarged and reduced using a photographic enlarger. These hoods (for accipiters) were very deep. If the hawk bated after it was hooded, the hood stayed on 80% of the time and also, when the braces were drawn, the hood did not slide over the bird's "nose".

The solution as I see it is simple. We need someone to make new blocks by taking castings of the heads of hawks which have recently died rather than copying from others. It really isn't rocket science.

Like a bloody fool, I gave away all my hood patterns years ago when I gave up hood making. Now I am learning to regret it. I don't give a damn what a hood looks like so long as it fits (and that means it is easy to put on and the bird finds it comfortable). But I might as well search for hen's teeth. :(

GriffMJ
14-01-2006, 08:12 PM
I'm a bit confused. I have heard of the Rollins hood blocks but nobody makes any mention of different blocks for hawks and falcons. Are they claiming both have similar head shapes?

Hi Derry

I have three complete sets of blocks:- Rollins, Tait & Maynes

Each of these hood makers claim that their block will fit a falcon and a Gos.... out of the three types of block I have found the Tait block appears to be best in shape and fit for Accipter.

NB: The Rollins pattern 9 is an extremly good fit as well, I regulary see a friends Fem Gos with the hood I made for him and the Gos sits happily in it without a problem..

I have several hoods here for my goshawks made by top hood makers. All apparently "fit" according to your guidlines. But so far as I am concerned, only one of the hoods fits reasonably well. The others all pitch forward when I go to pull the braces and are a real pain to get to sit correctly on the hawk's head. When they do (after much swearing) they look fine. I have questioned the makers about their blocks, and whether they are falcon blocks rather than accipiter blocks, but they have all evaded the question!

Do you have a photo of your Goshawk with the hood that fits "reasonably" well. It would help in understanding your personal preference :)

If there is such a thing as a hood block made for accipter then it is definatley not available to purchase as the other blocks that I have mentioned are? Also (without wishing to sound snotty) I am sure it would have been if they felt it necessary, especially by Ron Rollins as he took into account the Eagles skull shape in his Eagle Hood block.

Back in the days when I made my own hoods, I would find a hood that fitted, take it apart and make a pattern from it. These patterns were then enlarged and reduced using a photographic enlarger. These hoods (for accipiters) were very deep. If the hawk bated after it was hooded, the hood stayed on 80% of the time and also, when the braces were drawn, the hood did not slide over the bird's "nose".

The method used to make a good pattern larger and smaller is similar today... we use scanners and graphics programmes to make them accurate.

I understand what you mean about the hood sliding forward on accipter when bating ....I can only assume that the "nape" cut is too deep allowing the mantle to push the base of the hood forward on the head?

Not being a "Gosman" are they inclined to bate in the hood if on the glove or unattended?

The solution as I see it is simple. We need someone to make new blocks by taking castings of the heads of hawks which have recently died rather than copying from others. It really isn't rocket science.

I have a hood block here that might interest you....it was from America and I could ONLY assume it was made for Accipter as an experiment....

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/HoodBlock/AccipterBlock.JPG

Its not the best made block in the world... but I do think it was a serious attempt. I will be working out a pattern for it shortly ...its something I have been trying to get round to.

Like a bloody fool, I gave away all my hood patterns years ago when I gave up hood making. Now I am learning to regret it. I don't give a damn what a hood looks like so long as it fits (and that means it is easy to put on and the bird finds it comfortable). But I might as well search for hen's teeth. :(

Wish you had given them to me :D and i agree with your sentiment ...it does not matter what it looks like as long as it fits..... but to get a fit and have a good looking hood is good as well!?

Jack Merlin
15-01-2006, 05:52 AM
Hi Derry

(Snipped)
Do you have a photo of your Goshawk with the hood that fits "reasonably" well. It would help in understanding your personal preference :)


Griff - It wouldn't help you if I did. A hood can appear to be a perfect fit yet be very difficult to actually get on the bird in the first place. Sometimes, a hawk just takes a dislike to a hood for reasons we humans cannot comprehend. Sorry if that sounds arrogant, but I have been concerned with this problem for over half a century and, yes, I am very very fussy. It is not my preferences I am concerned about but the bird's!!<g>

To my mind, a good hood ought to stay on regardless of the upward bates an accipiter will often make in an attempt to remove it.

I have mentioned before the braceless falcon hood I made from a pattern taken from an original Pakistani hood given to me by Ronald Stevens. Once that hood was on a falcon, no matter how hard the falcon tried, the hood just settled down more securely on her head. It didn't need braces.

If there is such a thing as a hood block made for accipter then it is definatley not available to purchase as the other blocks that I have mentioned are? Also (without wishing to sound snotty) I am sure it would have been if they felt it necessary, especially by Ron Rollins as he took into account the Eagles skull shape in his Eagle Hood block.

The best fitting gos hood I have at the moment (which still isn't perfect) was made by a man who is also a very experienced austringer. I note that this hood is about 10mm deeper than the others. Your Rollins blocks may be suitable for both hawks and falcons, but what guidance do you have on the depth the final hood should be? I am guessing here but the depth does seem to be critical. I simply do not believe that the skulls of accipters and falcons are so similar -- especially as you say it is so difficult to make a good fit for a hybrid.

Perhaps the assumption that the Rollins blocks can be used to make falcon and hawk hoods is the reason nobody seems to be able to make a good accipiter hood? They may fit, but are they a good fit? There is a big difference between a Burton's suit and a Saville row suit -- hence the price difference.


I understand what you mean about the hood sliding forward on accipter when bating ....I can only assume that the "nape" cut is too deep allowing the mantle to push the base of the hood forward on the head?

No, Griff, with respect you don't. But that is my fault and I have not explained properly. I put the hood on the goshawk and if I leave it there and the hawk does not bate, it will remain there sitting too far forward. Drawing the braces at this point will result in the hood tipping even further forward and the opening at the back of the hood closing on a few nape feathers. (I do NOT mean that nape feathers are drawn into the slits for the braces -- this is another fault some hoods have). The only way I can get it on is by pushing it backwards until it is in the correct position and THEN attempting to close the braces. 80% of the time, this simply results in the hood tipping forward again and the opening catching feathers. I am not sure who gets annoyed most, me or the hawk! If I can manage it, the best way is to push the hood back and then close the hood by pulling on one brace with my right hand. If I can achieve that, I can then complete the close with my teeth and my right hand on both braces. That is not how it should be. The "good" hood does sit correctly and I can close the braces in the normal way. It will usually stay on despite the upward bates, too.


Not being a "Gosman" are they inclined to bate in the hood if on the glove or unattended?

Accipiters quite often fidget in the hood. That is normal accipiter behaviour. (Or it is for my birds!). My tiercel will even go "walk about"! AND regain his bow perch!! And, no, he can't see out of the hood. He does it by "feel" and he walks around with his beak stuck out ahead until he touches something. Both hawks will scratch the hood occasionally and both will eventually settle down, one leg up, with the hood on. I should explain that accipiters will sometimes bate even when wearing a perfect hood. A hungry hawk will even attempt to come when called with the hood on. This is nothing to do with the fit of the hood or being able to see through the beak opening.

I have a hood block here that might interest you....it was from America and I could ONLY assume it was made for Accipter as an experiment....

Its not the best made block in the world... but I do think it was a serious attempt. I will be working out a pattern for it shortly ...its something I have been trying to get round to.

I don't think you will make much progress by working with strange patterns and someone else's experimental blocks. What are you going to do with the hoods that you produce this way? No experienced falconer is going to bother with something that doesn't fit and inexperienced falconers will use them and not be any the wiser. I would beg, borrow, or steal old good fitting hoods from the top falconers and take patterns from them. Even offer an "old for new" exchange for worn out or damaged hoods. I am sure you know how to make castings of the inside of a hood using a condom and Plaster of Paris. I would also attempt to get as many frozen hawk heads as possible (!!) and make my own blocks. You will find that the best artists all studied anatomy and I am sure master tailors do too.

Sorry if my tone is occasionally a bit blunt but I was trained as a scientist, not a diplomat. The scientists way is to present an idea for his colleagues to pick to pieces. That is the best way of arriving at the truth. You won't learn a lot from compliments, though they are of course very nice! I admire your enthusiasm and dedication, just think you may be going about obtaining success in a rather round about way!<g>

GriffMJ
15-01-2006, 11:29 AM
Hi Derry

Griff - It wouldn't help you if I did. A hood can appear to be a perfect fit yet be very difficult to actually get on the bird in the first place. Sometimes, a hawk just takes a dislike to a hood for reasons we humans cannot comprehend. Sorry if that sounds arrogant, but I have been concerned with this problem for over half a century and, yes, I am very very fussy. It is not my preferences I am concerned about but the bird's!!

As you will know, Derry, you can make 4 hoods from the same pattern on the same block and only one of those might fit.....hoods are not an exact science.... there are to many variables.... leather will shrink on the block in a different way and the cut of the gape will vary etc etc.... so the hoodmakers task to get it right first time is a longshot. I do understand about "the hawks choice" in hood .....I have seen it.

The way its coming across is that its nearly impossible to get it right for Accipter....yet I have seen Gos in Dutch hoods made for falcons that are put on, fit and sit happily without a problem.

I really do need to "see" what you consider to be a good fit, have you got a photo of your Gos in the hood so that I can see what you mean? Meanwhile, here are some pics of Gos in the hood from other well known hood makers.

What do you think to the general fit of the following hoods?

Doug Pineo..... his blocks and patterns are almost identical to the Tait blocks
http://www.pineofalconry.com/upload_images/jays_gos.jpg
http://www.pineofalconry.com/upload_images/tiercel_gos.jpg

Brian Kellogs..... Dragon Hoods.... non blocked
http://www.falconry.ca/dragonhood.jpg

Bryant Tarr.... Hawkhill hoods
http://www.hawkhillhoods.com/images/Emily.JPG

GriffMJ
15-01-2006, 11:45 AM
Hi Derry

Here is the difference in skull shape ....the hawk having a much flatter head.

Peregrine falcon
http://www.zyworld.com/NAKARIN/skull6Dfalcon.jpg

Northern Goshawk
http://www.zyworld.com/NAKARIN/skull6Chawk.jpg

Jack Merlin
15-01-2006, 04:21 PM
Hi Derry

Here is the difference in skull shape ....the hawk having a much flatter head.
[/img]

Good for you! Now we are getting somewhere!

I would love to have a three dimensional computer generated model of these two skulls to play around with. You know, the programs they use in forensics to build up a life-likeness from a skull that you can rotate, manipulate, etc.

How do they compare width for width and length for length? (Ratios?). You need very accurate measurements.

The reason I suggested fresh dead specimens is because (of course!) a living head will have flesh and feathers added. (It would look a bit odd if it didn't!<g>). Birds of prey must also have pretty impressive jaw muscles, considering what they do with their beaks.

I agree, superficially the skulls appear very similar. But I bet the Devil is in the detail....

There will be other factors to consider. Do the skulls sit on the neck at the same angle, etc?

I wonder if you could get a falconer vet involved in this research? It would be really interesting to see X-rays of the heads of hooded hawks.

GriffMJ
15-01-2006, 04:46 PM
Peregrine Falcon
Order: Falconiformes
Family: Falconidae
Genus: Falco
Species: Falco peregrinus

http://www.skullsite.com/images/dbimages/large/falcoperegrinus_t.jpg

http://www.skullsite.com/images/dbimages/large/falcoperegrinus_s.jpg

Side, top view of skull.

Length: 63 mm
Length cranium: 41 mm
Width (cranium): 38 mm
Height (cranium): 27 mm
Length bill: 22 mm
Skull ratio: (Length / Length bill) 2.86

Information:
Female bird

StormRider
15-01-2006, 04:48 PM
Lads I might have a solution here. I have a friend who sells stereolythography machines for the racing car industry. I know that he has a desktop model that he uses for client demo's. He once used this machine for creating a full 3d model of a skatepark for a job I was designing for a client. If we were paying for this it would probably cost tens of thousands of pounds, but he just put my last ones through as prototype demo stock. Ill get in contact with him to see if he could make this work with creating actual sized replicas of birds heads from a 3d scan. If I can get him to create something, would you want to have a look
STU

GriffMJ
15-01-2006, 04:50 PM
Northern Goshawk
(Dutch: Havik)
Order: Falconiformes
Family: Accipitridae
Genus: Accipiter
Species: Accipiter gentilis

http://www.skullsite.com/images/dbimages/large/accipitergentilis_s.jpg

http://www.skullsite.com/images/dbimages/large/accipitergentilis_t.jpg
Side, top and view of skull.


Length: 78 mm
Length cranium: 47 mm
Width (cranium): 45 mm
Height (cranium): 33 mm
Length bill: 31 mm
Skull ratio: (Length / Length bill) 2.52


Click here for a 3D view of the complete skeleton :-
http://www.skullsite.com/skeletons/Accipitergentilis.htm


Information:
Female bird

GriffMJ
15-01-2006, 04:55 PM
Hi Derry

What would help me...is a dead Gos female (frozen) that i can use.... as that will have a tru fit ...fleshed out.

Here is a male Gos with one of my "Tait" Blocked Dutch hoods size 16T.... can you see how flat the top of the hood is...it also tucks in very nicley to the nape of the neck...... bags of room around the eye with no movement when fitted and easy to fit..... because of the shape of the hood it will sit on the head without the braces being struck...for that moment of composure :)
http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/examples/GosMale16.JPG

Adam Barrett
15-01-2006, 05:48 PM
What about going and having a word with a taxidermist? :)

GriffMJ
18-01-2006, 06:15 PM
Here is a hood I did yesterday for a friends Tiercel, this is the type of fit you can only get by trimming a standard gape back to the individual bird. If you cant do it yourself then bring your falcon/Hawk to the hoodmaker and ask him to do it for you. It took 30 mins to do ... trying the hood on and then adjusting until it was exact.

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/examples/Bullet1Jim.JPG

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/examples/Bullet2Jim.JPG

Jack Merlin
19-01-2006, 06:56 PM
Hi Derry

What would help me...is a dead Gos female (frozen)




Sorry, mate, but I am not volunteering!!!!<vbg>

But, seriously, I like the look of that hood. Yes, you are getting there and I'm impressed.

I don't always access this forum so I apologise for my late response.

One problem is that a goshawk (or any accipiter, come to that) only has to experience a bad hood once to become hood-shy to some degree or other. Then, even if the hood is a good fit, it is very likely the hawk will object.

The trick is to get a hood that fits from day one. They are a completely different kettle of fish to a falcon, as I am sure you know.

StormRider
19-01-2006, 06:59 PM
Sorry about the delay lads. I've gettin in touch with graham about the stereolythography. It turns out that an exact replica of the birds head can be made using this process after the head is scanned within a 3d scanning device. However, the bird would have to be dead. Unfortunately he does not work on that department anymore and cant do it for nowt. He claims that a 3d scan would cost approx £400 and the prototyping approx £7-800. If you want me to do anymore homework on this then just let me know lads and I'll try my best.
STU

GriffMJ
19-01-2006, 08:48 PM
Sorry about the delay lads. I've gettin in touch with graham about the stereolythography. It turns out that an exact replica of the birds head can be made using this process after the head is scanned within a 3d scanning device. However, the bird would have to be dead. Unfortunately he does not work on that department anymore and cant do it for nowt. He claims that a 3d scan would cost approx £400 and the prototyping approx £7-800. If you want me to do anymore homework on this then just let me know lads and I'll try my best.
STU

Bit rich for me Stu.... but thanks for the offer.

Jack Merlin
20-01-2006, 12:19 AM
Griff,

The stereolythography sounds interesting.

I would suggest finding out who makes the machine, then write to the managing director of the company. Tell him what you are trying to do. Tell him that you have at least one journalist who wants to write it up. Nick Kester might be another. You might be surprised what reaction you get -- he can only say "No". A bit of publicity like that can be good advertising for a company.

I used to get special solders and fluxes for bell making by being a bit cheeky. The sales manager of one firm got really keen and sent me all sorts of stuff to try -- all free!!<g>

I even got two gold fillings to my teeth free of charge from an Australian dentist on the strength of that, but that is another story!<g>

The biggest problem will be to get a fresh gos head! Maybe Mick Kane would give a donation??

Mary Quite Contrary
20-01-2006, 11:00 AM
The maynes hood fits my male goshawk well.

The back tab and the slits at the gape make it settle well onto the head alot better than a dutch.

GriffMJ
20-01-2006, 11:25 AM
The maynes hood fits my male goshawk well.

The back tab and the slits at the gape make it settle well onto the head alot better than a dutch.

Have you got a pic of it on your Gos so Derry can see it please Chuff? :)

I did send two hoods up to Derry to try but he was not convinced with the fit.... this was the first hood I sent up to Derry (his fem Gos in Pic)...

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/Gos/MHHGos.jpg

and then I sent another hood up with a different gape....but didnt ever see it on the Gos.

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/Hawk%20Range/Maynes61.JPG
http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/Hawk%20Range/Maynes60.JPG

Mary Quite Contrary
20-01-2006, 11:37 AM
I am **** with the picture thing but i could send it to you instead to post.

If you wasnt convinced of that fit ,what was wrong with the one in the picture Jack.

Fawkes
20-01-2006, 07:07 PM
This is a great thread guys! Very interesting, looking forward to more.

GriffMJ
25-01-2006, 01:03 PM
Hi All

Another example of a correctly fitting hood, in this case an H.J. Slijper's Anglo Indian hood..

Derry (JackMerlin): I think you will find that this pattern will fit Accipiter perfectly :)

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/Slijper/SlijFit3.JPG

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/Slijper/SlijFit1.JPG

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/Slijper/SlijFit2.JPG

StormRider
25-01-2006, 03:14 PM
Just off the thread a bit here, but I really do like your logo Griff. Is it an offtake of the Canadian Falconry logo or did you design it yourself?
STU

GriffMJ
25-01-2006, 03:59 PM
Just off the thread a bit here, but I really do like your logo Griff. Is it an offtake of the Canadian Falconry logo or did you design it yourself?
STU

Candian Falconry!!!???? No... its a design I found on a freeby site ...I had to de clutter it and turn it around.... I think the Candian Falconry site has a more Indian sort of totem pole design ..... but I see what you mean...lol

Lucky ......that lot ..... they can just pluck Gyrs out of the sky!!

http://www.canadianfalconry.com/cf_media/cf_intro.jpg

Jack Merlin
25-01-2006, 06:05 PM
[QUOTE=GriffMJ]Hi All,

Derry (JackMerlin): I think you will find that this pattern will fit Accipiter perfectly :)

/QUOTE]

Hi Griff,

I still have your hood. Could not get it on the female gos! Sorry, but I did not want to make her hood shy. I will return it.

I'll post pictures of what I have when I have time but it has been bedlum here. Only just seen your post.

Both gosses grounded as I have just been too busy. Daylight is at a premium at this time of year this far north. Seems we get about three hours daylight, then it is dark again. Yuck!

GriffMJ
26-01-2006, 04:39 PM
Perfection :)

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/Slijper/Slij5.JPG

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/Slijper/Slij6.JPG

Afshimo
26-01-2006, 06:39 PM
Please could you put the pattern on the web site? The folder doesnt open/work on my computer...grr. The hood does look nice once your used to it lol. Should jazz it up abit lol.

ATB

Han

GriffMJ
26-01-2006, 07:03 PM
Please could you put the pattern on the web site? The folder doesnt open/work on my computer...grr. The hood does look nice once your used to it lol. Should jazz it up abit lol.

ATB

Han

Try downloading again, Hannah....it will download from my site now.

Tim Laycock
26-01-2006, 07:12 PM
It does not need jazzing up, no reason to spoil it :D

I would like to see a sewn version though, I have little faith in glued hoods<g>

Afshimo
26-01-2006, 07:19 PM
still wont open! grr. How do u do it? save or open? then how do u get at it?

Thanks!

GriffMJ
26-01-2006, 07:20 PM
It does not need jazzing up, no reason to spoil it :D

I would like to see a sewn version though, I have little faith in glued hoods<g>


Well Tim.... the eye seams are angle cut with seam lining for extra strength....he throat lash is 0.7mm Roo that is plier pressed onto a scored surface for extra bonding. The brace closing points have been reinforced for anti crumple as well! This hood will not come appart... I assure you :D

I will be doing a sewn version shortly... including a sewn throat strap.

Tim Laycock
26-01-2006, 07:24 PM
Well Tim.... the eye seams are angle cut with seam lining for extra strength....he throat lash is 0.7mm Roo that is plier pressed onto a scored surface for extra bonding. The brace closing points have been reinforced for anti crumple as well! This hood will not come appart... I assure you :D

I will be doing a sewn version shortly...

Griff, Its not your glue I doubt, its mine :lol:

Tarqers
26-01-2006, 07:37 PM
bought this one from long(not a great fan of his kit) but this is a mustard fitting easy to use hood,,,tarqs .ps about pic on a flash

GriffMJ
26-01-2006, 07:40 PM
bought this one from long(not a great fan of his kit) but this is a mustard fitting easy to use hood,,,tarqs .ps about pic on a flash

What Sex and weight is it ... and what size does it say in the hood? Tarqers old boy :D

Tarqers
26-01-2006, 07:53 PM
male gos 1lb 5.5 oz flying,hood size 94 model erin ,,,,tarqs

Tarqers
26-01-2006, 07:54 PM
even a joey could get it on a gos,,,,yea right,,,tarqs

GriffMJ
26-01-2006, 07:58 PM
even a joey could get it on a gos,,,,yea right,,,tarqs

PMSL....Joey...havnt heard that for years! Tell me what the measurement is at the top of the hood Tarqs.....from eye to eye

Tarqers
26-01-2006, 08:05 PM
end of stitch to end of stitch/cut is 42 mm,,,tarqs

Tim Laycock
26-01-2006, 08:33 PM
Joey Deacon :shock: rofpmsl

TheZuffler
26-01-2006, 08:47 PM
Give him a 'Blue Peter' badge! :roll: