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  #81  
Old 13-07-2012, 06:49 AM
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Terry Radford
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Default Re: Peregrines vs hybrids

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Originally Posted by CloakDaggerTiercel View Post
Post reported Sam.



Post reported.



Post reported.



Post reported.

You're making it abundantly clear to everyone why you're thought of as a stalker Sam. Man up and let it go for your own sake.

Nick
Who is he stalking???
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  #82  
Old 13-07-2012, 11:36 AM
Nebli Nebli is offline
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Default Re: Peregrines vs Hybrids

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Originally Posted by Brian Sullivan View Post
Hi Scott,

As we let the Brits and Scots continue to sling mud at each other and much of it makes many of us wonder why when it is just Falconry they are going on about. It is not like someone is attacking their live hood or insulting their family, then I could possibly see the downward spiral of dialog?,

You have a very valid question. I can give my honest and humble opinion. I think your thinking is right on the mark. I have seen and had the occasional Peregrine that stood up to hawking our Prairie Grouse rigor, but without a doubt it is hard to beat the Falcons with Gyr in them, as pure wild Gyrfalcons make a living out of killing these types of quarry and are very suited for the harsh conditions that occur there in the Winter time.
That's the problem about living in a island
But the point is that for many people who do hunt in one place is to judge everything on the base of their experience in one place, living in a small country I 'm out of it pretty quickly and learn the hard way that partridges in spain have very little to do with their british homologues in term of hunting approach , and the same if going to hunt in the alps or in an island or moors etc.... it is remarkable how the place can makes things different and see that the best in one place ( if there was such a thing which I quite desbielieve)is not necessary the best everywhere so if Brian is convinced that uplandgame in winter is better hunt with gyrs or gyrs hybrids that's logical at subzero T░, other places will advantage other hawks
probably a brookei is better than a gyr or gyr peregrine, hunting in thermal with 30░C+ on red legs and probably some red naped even better .
That's what I like hawks like tundrius and calidus which in theory at least should be remarkably adaptable to almost all conditions,.
The limiting factors are : physiology , adaptation to external conditions.
After that the criteria is you personal taste mine will always be the same , sad in a way because I can't see the very best in every other hawks which are full of it as well.
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  #83  
Old 13-07-2012, 11:45 AM
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Default Re: Peregrines vs Hybrids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebli View Post
that's the problem about living in a island
But the point is that for many people who do hunt in one place is to judge everything on the base of their experience in one place, living in a small country I 'm out of it pretty quickly and learn the hard way that partridges in spain have very little to do with their british homologues in term of hunting approach , and the same if going to hunt in the alps or in an island or moors etc.... it is remarkable how the place can makes things different and see that the best in one place ( if there was such a thing which I quite desbielieve)is not necessary the best everywhere so if Brian is convinced that uplandgame in winter is better hunt with gyrs or gyrs hybrids that's logical at subzero T░, other places will advantage other hawks
probably a brookei is better than a gyr or gyr peregrine, hunting in thermal with 30░C+ on red legs and probably some red naped even better .
That's what I like hawks like tundrius and calidus which in theory at least should be remarkably adaptable to almost all conditions,.
The limiting factors are : physiology , adaptation to external conditions.
after that the criteria is you personal taste mine will always be the same , sad in a way because I can't see the very best in every other hawks which are full of it as well.
If there was a thanks button I would press it. One of the most sensible posts I have ever read on this forum. So much so I felt the need to respond and just say so
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  #84  
Old 13-07-2012, 01:40 PM
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Default Re: Peregrines vs Hybrids

One observation on cold weather effects on gamehawking. My tiercel peregrine (peales) refused to fly prairie chickens if temps were below 15 degrees Fahrenheit. My tiercel gyr hybrid seems to love it at those temps. The tundra (falcon) was fine too in the cold. Perhaps body size is a factor. The tundra and hybrid were equal in size even though different sexes. The hybrid's advantage is the ability to mount quicker perhaps smarter at dealing with being groused (as I call it) or not getting tricked by those damn chickens. I still would like a more precise explanation for why gry hybrids are (can be) better on grouse. The peregrine purist like to say stuff like the feet are bigger and are faster in the stoop.

As far as location and type of quarry effects on gamehawking. You'll definitely have a fitter falcon flying grouse than ducks. I'm curious about the difference in confidence. The success rate with ducks is much higher (in my experience). How does this effect effort when switching to grouse mid-season?

-- Scott

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebli View Post
that's the problem about living in a island
But the point is that for many people who do hunt in one place is to judge everything on the base of their experience in one place, living in a small country I 'm out of it pretty quickly and learn the hard way that partridges in spain have very little to do with their british homologues in term of hunting approach , and the same if going to hunt in the alps or in an island or moors etc.... it is remarkable how the place can makes things different and see that the best in one place ( if there was such a thing which I quite desbielieve)is not necessary the best everywhere so if Brian is convinced that uplandgame in winter is better hunt with gyrs or gyrs hybrids that's logical at subzero T░, other places will advantage other hawks
probably a brookei is better than a gyr or gyr peregrine, hunting in thermal with 30░C+ on red legs and probably some red naped even better .
That's what I like hawks like tundrius and calidus which in theory at least should be remarkably adaptable to almost all conditions,.
The limiting factors are : physiology , adaptation to external conditions.
after that the criteria is you personal taste mine will always be the same , sad in a way because I can't see the very best in every other hawks which are full of it as well.
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  #85  
Old 13-07-2012, 02:55 PM
Nebli Nebli is offline
Juan De Marcken
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Default Re: Peregrines vs Hybrids

I had the same with a british tiercel who refused to fly at around the same t░( if I convert properly farenheit in c░)

Let's analyse the flight:peregrines, gyrs , hybrids ( and others) don't have any problems if well trained to catch up with the grouse as far as speed is concern

and here is pure speculation from me so please correct me if I'm wrong ,I've never seen any flight on your side of the pond,
They have to slow down when close to the grouse, before the impact at that stage I guess is when grouse plays dirty tricks to say the least and having gain top speed will dodge the falcons in any possible and crazy way.
hybrids could probably mantain momentum longer than a peregrine

at that lower speed, hybrids are definitely having more manoeuvrability than peregrines, longer tail, shorter and broader wings ,lower wing loading , more breast muscle all that will favour a better capacity at gaining some advantage and eventually even pursuit the grouse and catch it better than a peregrine and not as well as a gyr .

Peregrines are undisputed inertia masters .

the more you reduce that the less chances they have to catch and instinct probably teach that to the grouse..

Now, if you have a cracking peregrine always aiming and succeeding in striking the head or wing , that hawk will have nothing to envy any other
for success, but that particular hawk is not the average one and can't be taken for model.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bird_Dog View Post
One observation on cold weather effects on gamehawking. My tiercel peregrine (peales) refused to fly prairie chickens if temps were below 15 degrees Fahrenheit. My tiercel gyr hybrid seems to love it at those temps. The tundra (falcon) was fine too in the cold. Perhaps body size is a factor. The tundra and hybrid were equal in size even though different sexes. The hybrid's advantage is the ability to mount quicker perhaps smarter at dealing with being groused (as I call it) or not getting tricked by those damn chickens. I still would like a more precise explanation for why gry hybrids are (can be) better on grouse. The peregrine purist like to say stuff like the feet are bigger and are faster in the stoop.

As far as location and type of quarry effects on gamehawking. You'll definitely have a fitter falcon flying grouse than ducks. I'm curious about the difference in confidence. The success rate with ducks is much higher (in my experience). How does this effect effort when switching to grouse mid-season?

-- Scott
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  #86  
Old 13-07-2012, 03:12 PM
David Liepe David Liepe is offline
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Default Re: Peregrines vs Hybrids

Have a thought on this.
In my brief experience hunting chickens, it seems a falcon predisposed to flaten out and attempt to bind to them usually gets smoked. I know many peregrine duck hawks use this scoop and bind. Just not going to get it done on chickens. Grouse have racing homer type awareness of the falcons position and once it makes its first run they quickly assess the falcons ability. They simply accellerate and leave a falcon coming in flat in the dust. Now the Gyr hybrids, at least those I've flown, are a bit faster and more importantly, have a tendency to come over the top and drive thru quarry. Intimidation takes its toll at this point and the quarry if not killed is either too scared or too injured to mount a credible defense after this type of treatment.
So I think it comes down to style. Which species employs which style. Those that learn a vertical stoop and pass thru the upper third of grouse seem like the ones that will get it done.
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  #87  
Old 13-07-2012, 06:33 PM
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Default Re: Peregrines vs Hybrids

Most of my hawking was carried out before 1980 and mostly with passage and haggard birds including peregrines and other falcon species of similar size, and my experience with these is that they will wait on and fly at game, they will fly hard in pursuit and will enjoy bashing the last few bales in a barn with a bit of ratting. I am talking multi-skill individual falcons. Not all will do anything and everything but it is surprising how many will. I have had this opinion shouted down in the past with the argument that non specialist birds are masters of none of the hunting skills and if I think they are I am not expecting much. With the shortage of birds to fly back then perhaps I didn't expect too much but as sure as hell I can recognize excellence in A bird and I had a few of these.
I tend to agree that there are few if any slots still open that haven't already been filled over millenniums and would prefer to fly a pure bird despite the fact that there are some damn fine hybrids around.
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  #88  
Old 14-07-2012, 12:19 AM
Brian Sullivan Brian Sullivan is offline
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Default Re: Peregrines vs Hybrids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebli View Post
that's the problem about living in a island
but the point is that for many people who do hunt in one place is to judge everything on the base of their experience in one place, living in a small country I 'm out of it pretty quickly and learn the hard way that partridges in spain have very little to do with their british homologues in term of hunting approach , and the same if going to hunt in the alps or in an island or moors etc.... it is remarkable how the place can makes things different and see that the best in one place ( if there was such a thing which I quite desbielieve)is not necessary the best everywhere so if Brian is convinced that uplandgame in winter is better hunt with gyrs or gyrs hybrids that's logical at subzero T░, other places will advantage other hawks
probably a brookei is better than a gyr or gyr peregrine, hunting in thermal with 30░C+ on red legs and probably some red naped even better .
that's what I like hawks like tundrius and calidus which in theory at least should be remarkably adaptable to almost all conditions,.
the limiting factors are : physiology , adaptation to external conditions.
after that the criteria is you personal taste mine will always be the same , sad in a way because I can't see the very best in every other hawks which are full of it as well.
Yes, very true and only live on an Island for a couple months of the year. I grew up in country that was coastal temperate zone and a high annual rain fall each year. Flew mainly Ducks and Snipe and Peregrines were well suited for hawking there, but saw one large female Gyr x Peale's fly Ducks on passage like no other Falcon I have seen fly. I wish I could say I trained her, but only bred her and seeing her perform on that level was amazing. Waiting on at super high pitches and killing Ducks so high up that the intercepts were the height of most high flying Falcons.

Now in the Inland Northwest of the US and it gets very hot here in Summer and very cold in Winter. Different Quarry and able to travel to grouse locations. It is all different and having a different Falcons to choose from is also a great option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bird_Dog View Post
One observation on cold weather effects on gamehawking. My tiercel peregrine (peales) refused to fly prairie chickens if temps were below 15 degrees Fahrenheit. My tiercel gyr hybrid seems to love it at those temps. The tundra (falcon) was fine too in the cold. Perhaps body size is a factor. The tundra and hybrid were equal in size even though different sexes. The hybrid's advantage is the ability to mount quicker perhaps smarter at dealing with being groused (as I call it) or not getting tricked by those damn chickens. I still would like a more precise explanation for why gry hybrids are (can be) better on grouse. The peregrine purist like to say stuff like the feet are bigger and are faster in the stoop.

As far as location and type of quarry effects on gamehawking. You'll definitely have a fitter falcon flying grouse than ducks. I'm curious about the difference in confidence. The success rate with ducks is much higher (in my experience). How does this effect effort when switching to grouse mid-season?

-- Scott
Hi Scott,

I do not know if I would say one Falcon is better then the other, but some birds are just better whether they are Peregrines or Gyr x Peregrines. Peregrines in the wild do not fly around killing Grouse even places like the the Aleutian Islands where there is plenty of Ptarmigan, but they prefer the Alcids. Gyrfalcons on the other hand make a living out of catching them and well adaptive to them. It is not hard for a Peregrine to fly Grouse, but most seem to struggle at killing them all the time in clean flights. There are one's in the right hands that do very well even the males.

When you mix the two with like the 50/50's you many times get the best of both Worlds. Cold resistant is for sure an advantage on the plains. As Dave stated that Duck Hawks do not usually make great Grouse Hawks, unless they learn to power down in the stoop and drive into the top front of the Grouse. Coming in way behind only allows the Grouse to use speed, maneuverability, and wits to make the Falcon look silly... I have seen Peregrines that drive into the Grouse and they were the most successful.
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  #89  
Old 14-07-2012, 05:25 PM
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Default Re: Peregrines vs Hybrids

What experience have people had flying the praire/peregrine hybred what kind of weights do females get to and are they prone to temper tantrums like I have read or is this rubbish.
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  #90  
Old 14-07-2012, 06:28 PM
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Default Re: Peregrines vs Hybrids

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Originally Posted by Raptor_man View Post
What experience have people had flying the praire/peregrine hybred what kind of weights do females get to and are they prone to temper tantrums like I have read or is this rubbish.
Hi David - I've flown two. One was an agressive beast that I swear was part crocodile and flew at 1lb 10-11oz. The other was the most sweet-tempered falcon I have had the pleasure to handle and was around the same weight as a youngster but was flown at 1lb 13-14oz as a mature hawk.

Gerry x
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