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  #31  
Old 30-11-2010, 07:56 AM
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Little Joe Little Joe is offline
Jannes Kruger
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Default Re: Black saker from China

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Originally Posted by Turumti View Post
Dear Jannes,

These days with the number of captive bred birds and hybrids floating around, its very difficult to tell a hacked bird from a passager, and the task becomes even more difficult in the case of trained birds.

Like I have said before, not every big, dark and melanistic saker is an Altai. The difference lies in more than just the plumage and size. The true Altai sakers (caught in western China and Kazakhstan), that I have seen has some features which differentiated them from most other sakers.

They have a rather aquiline head with deep set eyes and a longish beak. The tarsi are often lightly feathered and sometimes they even have feathers between the toes. The wings and tail are quite gyrlike - the former rather rounded compared to other sakers, and the latter has a very broad base, rather long and tapers in a fashion most similar to a gyr's. Subsequently, the proportion of the two - wings and tail - are also very similar to gyr's. The most striking resemblance perhaps is the vocalisation when they are stressed, which a harsh, loud, metallic, grating, "kank-kank-kank-kank" compared to saker's, "kack-kack-kack-kack".

The flight style of the one true Altai that I had seen flown at quarry was also rather gyrlike, with the falcon preferring to take long slips and fly away from the houbara, gain height, and then mow it down most of the time in a long , but very fast and shallow stoop, pumping her wings and gaining speed all the way. Later in the season, when flying wily, falcon-wisined houbara, this bird developed another technique, which was very reminiscent of wild red shaheens flying pigeons. She would stoop below and behind the bird, and the bind to it from underneath, as she was pulling up out of the stoop. My friend had this bird for about three months before he lost her during a flight at a houbara on passage. (Her prowess had him overconfident, and he flew her during the return migration period in spring).
Salman, you know I respect your opinion and experience, but many of the qualities you mention are very subjective things. However, I don't wish to enter into a lengthy debate about this. Hope to go hawking with you one day rather.

All the best,
Jannes
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  #32  
Old 30-11-2010, 08:26 AM
Turumti Turumti is offline
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Default Re: Black saker from China

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Originally Posted by Little Joe View Post
Salman, you know I respect your opinion and experience, but many of the qualities you mention are very subjective things. However, I don't wish to enter into a lengthy debate about this. Hope to go hawking with you one day rather.

All the best,
Jannes
My friend,

You are welcome anytime to come hawking with me. As for the Altais, I have only mentioned what I have seen and heard ( the kank kank) myself first hand.
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  #33  
Old 30-11-2010, 05:32 PM
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As The Falcon Her Bells As The Falcon Her Bells is offline
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Default Re: Black Saker from China

If you are genuinely interested to find out more about Sakers Dr. Chris Eastham did a 5 years PHD on saker falcons, it should be available on the net, he is also a member on here but I cant remember his user name and he is rarely online.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle2000 View Post
little joe

you mean 3/4 and 7/8 gyr x pere is the most popular......
There is not that many 3/4 gyr/peregrines breed, and they are not that popular in the UAE, there is even less 7/8 gyr/peregrines bred. From the gyr/sakers the 7/8 is much more popular than the 3/4.

Last edited by As The Falcon Her Bells; 30-11-2010 at 06:01 PM.
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  #34  
Old 01-12-2010, 04:35 AM
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Little Joe Little Joe is offline
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Default Re: Black Saker from China

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Originally Posted by As The Falcon Her Bells View Post
if you are genuinely interested to find out more about Sakers Dr. Chris Eastham did a 5 years PHD on saker falcons, it should be available on the net, he is also a member on here but I cant remember his user name and he is rarely online.



There is not that many 3/4 gyr/peregrines breed, and they are not that popular in the UAE, there is even less 7/8 gyr/peregrines bred. From the gyr/sakers the 7/8 is much more popular than the 3/4.
There is also a fertility issue with Gyr x Peregrines as far as I know, but you might be able to shed more light on that.
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  #35  
Old 01-12-2010, 08:49 AM
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As The Falcon Her Bells As The Falcon Her Bells is offline
Sara Skalman - Moderator
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Default Re: Black Saker from China

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Originally Posted by Little Joe View Post
There is also a fertility issue with Gyr x Peregrines as far as I know, but you might be able to shed more light on that.

Females (if they are gyr in to peregrine) are infertile but the majority of males are not, so you produce 3/4 and 7/8 trough the males. indeed we have produced quite a few 3/4 gyr/peregrines over the years and so have other breeders.
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  #36  
Old 02-12-2010, 06:20 PM
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Siberia Siberia is offline
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Default Re: Black Saker from China

In general dark Sakers are more common in the Altay region than in the other parts of areal.From what I have seen myself the darkest birds are from the Ukok plateau on the western part of the boundary of Russia and Mongolia and Xinjiang province of China /my observations are from the Mongolian Chinese boundary area/.Dark Sakers are common in some valleys of the Russain part of the Altay mountain.In general with the movement from East to West and from stepps to the highlands of the Altay mountain the birds become more darker colored and larger in size.In central Altay mountain where the climate,relief,vegitation,etc. are almost identical to the ones beyond the arctic circle these large falcons that are closer in shape,fly pattern,coloration to the Gyrs start to appear.They are not only different in color.But they fly,hunt,expose gyr's breeding display characteristics,vocalize in a different way from the normal Sakers.So,what Turumti posted here is 100 % true.But there are not many birds like this.I think the overall number of the breeding pairs of such falcons in Russia we know /though even we the professional ornitologists are not sharing all details with each other )) / hardly exceed 50.
The exact subsp.of the Altay Saker could be determined with a certainty of about 75 % after the first moult.The rest 25 % of the population expose mixed features.
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  #37  
Old 03-12-2010, 10:11 AM
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EagleMan EagleMan is offline
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Default Re: Black Saker from China

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Originally Posted by AccipiterFreak View Post
Talking about big saker, Mr. Xiao Qu Qu of Ninsha, China bought this saker in southern Ninsha (northern Tibet) last fall. Trap weight was unknown, but the weight after about one week was 1650 g. Many dealers from Pakistan and Afghanistan show up in these area after Eid ul-Fitr. These dealers pay extra money for sakers from this area. Because Chinese government tighten the enforcement last year. No dealers showed up, that's how Mr. Xiao Qu Qu got this bird. Because this bird ate too much, he had to release it.


I like this type of saker very much. It's more beautifull and eye cathching than those dark sakers that everybody seems to be crazy about.

This female is very big at 1 650 grams.

Surely she is best fitted for hunting large birds like gooses and cormorants.

Regards!
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  #38  
Old 10-05-2017, 08:06 AM
Malamute Malamute is offline
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Default Re: Black Saker from China

I have personally kept two falcons in China, one is the light morph and the other black saker which is close to Altai in bloodline I guess. The lighter one is more inclined to attack bigger prey like rabbit or even stoats but the dark colored saker is more interested in chasing smaller prey such as pigeon or hamster. I am not sure if it is correlated to the plumage of the color in terms of their preference on the prey items.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleMan View Post
I like this type of saker very much. It's more beautifull and eye cathching than those dark sakers that everybody seems to be crazy about.

This female is very big at 1 650 grams.

Surely she is best fitted for hunting large birds like gooses and cormorants.

Regards!
Any sakers above 1700 grams is really large. unlike the gyrfalcon whose bulkiness comes from the thick feathers, sakers are more structurally athletic.
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