Falconry Forum (IFF)


Go Back   Falconry Forum (IFF) > BIRD OF PREY TALK > Shortwings - Accipiter

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-09-2009, 12:46 AM
Johny's Avatar
Johny Johny is offline
John formerly It's Alright Ma
Haggard
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Highway 61
Posts: 11,927
Default Imprint Noise

The imprint is an unexpected creature, foreign in ways to us, as he is to his own kind, but useful to us. With his accepting of us and his superb hunting abilty, higher weight and all that, we would be foolish not to love him

And yet, I have observed a multitude of threads on imprints (goshawks particularly) on here and many are troublesome, the goshawks that is. But many successful. This is the generation of imprinting, the 'in', and yet despite the obvious problems, we keep picking up these birds. I did. And if it were not for my families reaction, it would have been mine that said enough.

Anyway, this is by no means a criticism of imprints, but an attempt to discuss the understanding of them, and in particular, vocalization. And I by no means pretend to know anything about it.

What occurred to me with my imprints was, above all else, their noise (all who have had will know what I mean).

This noise does not occur in the wild nest, except when they are desperate, or when they hear their parents return. But with people the noise can be constant.

That their silence in the nest is due to an 'innate' awareness that people exist, and that they are harmful? I mean there are other dangers for wild eyas goshawks, but they will only refrain from calling if these are near, or if there are new sounds. This has been shown. But with people raised imprints, calling is constant, atleast for some, or most.

And even when people with imprints leave the vicinity, like a parent bird, the imprint continues to call, this has been shown, by camera and underhand methods for which the hawk is unaware.

I recall a respected austinger advising me on my imprint, for his silence, get him killing. Old hat now, but of course he was correct. The mother hawk, less the father, have not this problem with their children. Rooks are more clingy than goshawks in my observations.

So the point? What is it about people that makes goshawks think (and other birds, perhaps) that they are so free from danger that they can shout their mouths off? Are we, although the ultimate danger to the wild bird, the ultimate protector to the imprint. 'Cause it aint all about food, I'm sure of that. Any idea's? The austringer is certainly not 'replacement parent', with an imprint, as some austringers claim. If he were, he'd be intuitively or unknowingly putting his baby to sleep, when his hawk need his sleep, or his rest, if you get my drifting.

Doubt I'll get much response - the troubled folk are too preoccupied, and besides, I don't have enough friends for a discussion

Johny
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-09-2009, 02:29 AM
VerticalStoop's Avatar
VerticalStoop VerticalStoop is offline
Passage
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: B ST E
Posts: 849
Default Re: Imprint Noise

Johny,

I completely understand. I have the same problem with my Tiercel Peregrine this year. He is the first imprint that I have done that is noisy, I did change a few things this year, to my detriment, it would seem.

I'd be glad of some enlightenment also.

ATB VS
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-09-2009, 03:10 AM
Johny's Avatar
Johny Johny is offline
John formerly It's Alright Ma
Haggard
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Highway 61
Posts: 11,927
Default Re: Imprint Noise

Quote:
Originally Posted by VerticalStoop View Post
Johny,

I completely understand. I have the same problem with my Tiercel Peregrine this year. He is the first imprint that I have done that is noisy, I did change a few things this year, to my detriment, it would seem.

I'd be glad of some enlightenment also.

ATB VS

No imprints here my friend, but I do sympathize. Hopefully forthcoming some understanding and resolutions to these matters tho'

All the best

Johny
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-09-2009, 03:54 AM
Little Joe's Avatar
Little Joe Little Joe is offline
Jannes Kruger
Haggard
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: far away
Posts: 8,328
Default Re: Imprint Noise

Hi Johny,

I dont necessarily agree with everything you said, but I certainly enjoyed your writing style a lot.

Would love to discuss some of the points you raised, but dont have time now - maybe later.

Regards,
Jannes

Last edited by Little Joe; 08-09-2009 at 03:55 AM. Reason: spelling
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-09-2009, 03:55 AM
Tacatanach's Avatar
Tacatanach Tacatanach is offline
Therese
Passage
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,109
Default Re: Imprint Noise

Here's my 2 cents on the matter Disclaimer- this is almost all falcon based, I've never flown accips

Some birds (both individuals and species) are more vocal than others. Here in the US 3 species that come to mind are red shouldered hawks, prairie falcons, and American kestrels. When I was doing raptor rehab we would have both passage and adult of RSHA and AK that were screamers- you'd walk by and they'd start screaming, they would hear you and they'd start screaming; even completely wild birds would scream. Not necessarily food begging (although the pitch and frequency would be the same as food begging eyas's it wouldn't be accompanied by the wing drouping that seems to accompany a screaming eyas. The prairie falcons I've trained or seen have also been quite noisy, although their scream is a different scream from food begging (just as nerve grating though). Additionally, Ive seen and flown early trapped passage birds that turn into food begging screamers if you're not careful.

Now leaving behind the observations of wild/wild captives i have a few theory on imprints. I've flown or trained a handful, some I've imprinted others that others have imprinted and handed off to me so I'm by no means an expert but I think I make a decent imprint at this point. The birds I've encountered that are screamers tend to be those that don't have much human interaction past the raising stage- for example are raised inside until they are starting to be pretty mobile then put out in the mews with interaction coming for a few hours a day via tame hacks and feeding, while birds that stay quiet are kept around people for a lot longer at least until killing consistently if not indefinitely. My thought behind this is birds that become screamers only have human interaction in instances associated with food- be it direct feeding or through the tame hack process. So they start expecting any time they see a person to end with food and when it doesn't (or even if it does) they start food begging. This happens in nature- as birds and start branching they see mom or dad with food and start screaming to alert them of where they are. In nature though this process is pretty fast a few weeks before the parents quit feeding them and they get no reward for screaming. Falconry though its a positive feedback cycle- bird sees person, bird starts screaming, person feeds bird (either through flying or lure or whatever), bird gets what it wants. At the extreme a bird will start screaming even without seeing someone even just hearing a door or car (or even nothing) will set them off. So to get a bird to stop screaming you need to break that feedback cycle- either by getting the bird to the point its flying well and killing enough it decides its not really reliant on you for food or by convincing it that you don't feed it.

Two examples before I wrap this up. I was given a tribred falcon by a friend, hard imprint screamer. By the time I was given the bird it had been sitting in the mews for 4 months with its only interaction being served sparrows in the mews (keep in mind this is the US so perfect legal). The falcon was killing basically every meal it ate. I knew it was a screamer when i picked it up but was expecting him to quiet down with the change in falconer/setting. I quickly discovered this was not the case and after 4 days of nonstop screaming had to do something before my roommates killed me. So i came up with an anti screaming plan based on talking to some falconers and my own take on avian psychology. First, any time it screamed I'd spray it down with cold water, second I'd turn the lights off until he stopped, third, i never openly fed him, and fourth (and I think most importantly) he was either in the dark or with people. Within a couple weeks he was silent. I think 1 and 2 were good deterants for screaming, but 3 and 4 were what really shaped the behavior I wanted. By being around people 18 hours a day and having none of that interaction involve food he figured out that screaming got him nothing other than cold water in his mouth and being put in the dark.

My current bird is an imprint 2x intermew tiercel pere. Hes silent about 95% of the time. However, every once and a while I go through a period where I have to be at work 15+ hours a day or we're on the road a lot and he has to stay hooded and the only real people time involves me feeding him. I've noticed after 4-5 days of this he starts becoming a screamer. However its reversible just by spending a couple days where hes with people constantly. As with the 1st example he figures out that people don't always lead to food, infact if hes screaming he doesn't get to eat and then goes back to his normal quiet self.

So to summarize this super long post which has nothing to do with goshawks, i think it comes down to interaction. In the wild the act of screaming isn't rewarded once disbursal occurs so screaming stops (this is however why early trapped passage birds will start food begging, which commonly happens) while in falconry disbursal never occurs. However in the average falconry situation the bird lives in a state of confusion- "mom/dad" is around fairly regularly, enough to where screaming is rewarded by food (or interaction) but not enough so that the novelty wears off and the bird is silent. I think this is why virtually all the silent imprints I've seen are around people pretty much constantly- literally living in the living room. My imprint for example went to work with me daily for the first 6 months and even now fairly regularly. Hes got 2 blocks- 1 in the living room and 1 in my bedroom and I move him back and forth as the day goes on.

I lied- one final observation. Location seems to play a big role also. Screaming seems to be more common near the "nest". Ive noticed with birds that are screamers they tend to be quieter in situations away from where they are raised. Even when my pere is having one of his screaming days if I take him with me to a friends house or whatever he almost always becomes instantly quiet. I've noticed this with most (but not all) birds.
__________________
Subspecies are totally arbitrary and no modern species concepts have any room for subspecies ľ as such they are defunct by the standards of modern systematic theory and have no place in current classification!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-09-2009, 04:31 AM
Brady's Avatar
Brady Brady is offline
Passage
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 622
Default Re: Imprint Noise

I must say i have imprinted a fhh since 2days old not my inention but dad killed mum after 2days so little advice from mentor an older falconers i did it .
She is now 10 wks old an still like a pup with all kids ,dogs ,an anyone . She never seen me as food source till last week an still only whistles at me .
Brady
__________________
Dont be a fool go to school
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-09-2009, 07:39 AM
Puzo's Avatar
Puzo Puzo is offline
Kev
Passage
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Debatable Lands of the Solway Marches
Posts: 1,353
Default Re: Imprint Noise

I think it's pretty obvious why imprints continue to scream whilst their wild counterparts don't. A wild bird will become self dependant within about 3 months. With the (mal)imprint the human parents remain on the scene, continuing & reinforcing the infantile dependancy throughout the life of the bird. So the bird remains fixated in pseudo-infancy. Never really achieving independance. Expressing it's desire for food vocally, the hungrier the louder.

They probably feel free from danger, because we man them to a point where their natural fear response is supressed by habituation. Plus they have no real understanding of their own identity.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-09-2009, 07:52 AM
Keith Barker's Avatar
Keith Barker Keith Barker is offline
Haggard
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 10 Rillington place
Posts: 5,293
Default Re: Imprint Noise

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brady View Post
I must say i have imprinted a fhh since 2days old not my inention but dad killed mum after 2days so little advice from mentor an older falconers i did it .
She is now 10 wks old an still like a pup with all kids ,dogs ,an anyone . She never seen me as food source till last week an still only whistles at me .
Brady
have you dopped her weight yet brady ready for hunting?
i would be interested to see what she is like when you do if you have not already.
Keith
__________________
State registered Goshawker
barkerskid@eircom.net
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-09-2009, 07:59 AM
David Rampling's Avatar
David Rampling David Rampling is offline
Dave
Haggard
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Clovelly, North Devon
Posts: 13,786
Default Re: Imprint Noise

Johny, the Buzzards that nested in the woods behind my garden are still calling fairly constantly to their parents. When the spars nested their last year I remember being amazed at the volume of noise, constant from dawn till dusk, for a long time. Wild birds can be very noisy too, prior to complete independance. Atb
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-09-2009, 08:26 AM
AlexB's Avatar
AlexB AlexB is offline
Alex Brown
Haggard
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Dover in Kent
Posts: 9,063
Default Re: Imprint Noise

I find it strange that p/r birds flown are accepted as being on the whole silent and the imprints are the noisy ones till they have grown up or learnt a bit of independence from us as food supplier or source.

But in the wild birds raised normally will be at times incredibly noisy, I have lost count on how many times I have found nests due to the noise of the eyasses in there.

Why is this? That we accept that imprints will be noisy but p/r will not (normally).

ATB

Alex
__________________
Keep Calm and get the lure out if you need it!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
imprint, noise

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.